Federal Election Called for Oct 19, 2015

[Vulcan]

Originally Posted by killer_carlson

agreed with the bold.

however I disagree that the only time we should intervene is if there is a threat to us. I dont think we should be passive participants in the global human rights movement.

Like we should invade Iraq again?

I think we should learn to mostly stay out of other peoples civil wars as our last interference just made things worse. The thing is it looks like ISIS is doing everything it can to get the West involved with troops on the ground. The only reason I can see is to paint the West the as the invaders so they can unite all Arabs against us. We may win some battles for sure but we'll lose the war because they don't want us there, just as the Vietnamese didn't want us there.

Here's a quote from C S Lewis.

"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good
of its victim may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live
under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies.
The robber baron’s cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may
at some point be satiated, but those who torment us for our own good
will torment us without end for they do so with the approval
of their own conscience."

It's a difficult subject because yeah we should supply food and medical aid to the displaced who have voted with their feet but getting involved in their political wars, no.

edit laugh because ISIS has managed to combine being robber barons while being moral busybodies as well.

[saillias]

Originally Posted by RyZ

Meh. You probably also have a better chance of being struck by lightning than being impacted at all by Bill C51 unless you are selling babies or bomb making kits online, but many are making that a hill to die on attacking the CPC (& Libs) from the NDP side. It's all a part of politics and most of this stuff being proposed by any of the 3 parties wont affect any of us in our daily lives either.

One claim has the actual stats to back it up, this doesn't? That's the point of the opposition to the bill in the first place, that supporting it is based on blind faith that our benevolent overlords will always do the right thing.

[FlamesAddiction]

Originally Posted by Vulcan

Like we should invade Iraq again?

I think we should learn to mostly stay out of other peoples civil wars as our last interference just made things worse. The thing is it looks like ISIS is doing everything it can to get the West involved with troops on the ground. The only reason I can see is to paint the West the as the invaders so they can unite all Arabs against us. We may win some battles for sure but we'll lose the war because they don't want us there, just as the Vietnamese didn't want us there.

Here's a quote from C S Lewis.

It's a difficult subject because yeah we should supply food and medical aid to the displaced who have voted with their feet but getting involved in their political wars, no.

edit laugh because ISIS has managed to combine being robber barons while being moral busybodies as well.

Personally, I don't think Conservatives even really care about the atrocities or oppression of ISIS (of course we are all appalled regardless of political affiliation). The desire to intervene is a more pragmatic one than an altruistic one.

A) You can't do business with ISIS, so it's hard to make money from ISIS;

B) The mass migrations and human trafficking are testing the economic, social and culture institutions of many Western countries, particularly in Europe;

C) For the hard-core conservatives, they are afraid that the human migrations from the ME are going to contribute to the Islamification of the West over the next generation.

Actually helping people living there is more of a way of keeping them there and worrying about terrorist attacks in Canada is just a diversion. And to be honest, it makes sense on a lot of levels. Someone has to rebuild those countries and be a moderate voice in the region. If all the moderates leave, what hope is there?

While I agree that we should help on the humanitarian side, I don't think supporting an exodus is the answer.

[Slava]

Originally Posted by killer_carlson

No.

In my opinion ISIS is far and away the worst movement we've seen in 25 years. They have lowered the bar for depravity.

And you have avoided the question.

Is there a threshold act that ISIS would do which would change your mind about intervention?


As it stands the answer is no. I suggest that is a serious departure from the small "L" liberal ideals you advocate for.

Can you give me a reason why I should care? I guess that sounds callous, so hopefully it comes across properly. But when I hear about things ISIS is doing, I find that we see a lot of this around the world, but do nothing in those areas. The atrocities in North Korea, Sudan, etc. all seem as terrible if not worse and more organized yet we "have to act to protect ourselves" in one case only?

I don't think for a second that we can act in all of these situations. I just think that the ISIS issue is fear mongering because even if we jump all over them and do what Harper advocates it doesn't actually improve our safety that I can see.

[EldrickOnIce]

Originally Posted by Slava

Can you give me a reason why I should care? I guess that sounds callous, so hopefully it comes across properly. But when I hear about things ISIS is doing, I find that we see a lot of this around the world, but do nothing in those areas. The atrocities in North Korea, Sudan, etc. all seem as terrible if not worse and more organized yet we "have to act to protect ourselves" in one case only?

I don't think for a second that we can act in all of these situations. I just think that the ISIS issue is fear mongering because even if we jump all over them and do what Harper advocates it doesn't actually improve our safety that I can see.

I don't think the right approach is 'why should I care about anything that doesn't directly affect me'. I don't know exactly where the balance is.
I keep hearing 'fear mongering' but do not recall Harper doing this. He has pledged our support and commitment to 'the cause'. I would like to see an example(s) of his fear mongering, versus the Libs or NDP using the rhetoric. I may misremember or gloss it over.

[Resolute 14]

ISIS matters more to us because some of our own people are getting involved. So when a kid from Calgary goes over and gets his dumb ass killed because he was "radicalized", that has a greater psychological impact locally than anything groups like Boko Haram has done.

[PeteMoss]

Originally Posted by Resolute 14

ISIS matters more to us because some of our own people are getting involved. So when a kid from Calgary goes over and gets his dumb ass killed because he was "radicalized", that has a greater psychological impact locally than anything groups like Boko Haram has done.

Don't you think those people are getting involved because Canada (and other countries) are invovled in fighting ISIS and thus ISIS is able to paint Canada as an enemy (and the media in Canada also has to cover ISIS on a regular basis because we are involved so they are much more visible to the average guy then these other groups).

[PeteMoss]

Originally Posted by killer_carlson

No.

In my opinion ISIS is far and away the worst movement we've seen in 25 years. They have lowered the bar for depravity.

And you have avoided the question.

Is there a threshold act that ISIS would do which would change your mind about intervention?


As it stands the answer is no. I suggest that is a serious departure from the small "L" liberal ideals you advocate for.

They are obviously awful, but so are the groups in Africa who kidnap large groups of kids to either rape or turn into soliders or they attempt to wipe out a whole group of people. Its just much more visible because some of the ISIS attacks happen to Western aid workers while the other groups commit their atrocities to other Africans.

[Resolute 14]

Originally Posted by PeteMoss

Don't you think those people are getting involved because Canada (and other countries) are invovled in fighting ISIS and thus ISIS is able to paint Canada as an enemy (and the media in Canada also has to cover ISIS on a regular basis because we are involved so they are much more visible to the average guy then these other groups).

Perhaps, but that is utterly irrelevant to my point of *why* we care more about outfits like Al Qaeda and ISIS than most other groups.

[EldrickOnIce]

Originally Posted by PeteMoss

Don't you think those people are getting involved because Canada (and other countries) are invovled in fighting ISIS and thus ISIS is able to paint Canada as an enemy (and the media in Canada also has to cover ISIS on a regular basis because we are involved so they are much more visible to the average guy then these other groups).

I think it's clear that is the case. 'Terrorists' have said as much. Canadian soldiers have been killed on our soil for that reason.

What should we do instead?

[PeteMoss]

Originally Posted by EldrickOnIce

I think it's clear that is the case. 'Terrorists' have said as much. Canadian soldiers have been killed on our soil for that reason.

What should we do instead?

Until we have a solution that will actually work - don't have our soliders go over there and get killed.

[CroFlames]

Originally Posted by Slava

Can you give me a reason why I should care? I guess that sounds callous, so hopefully it comes across properly. But when I hear about things ISIS is doing, I find that we see a lot of this around the world, but do nothing in those areas. The atrocities in North Korea, Sudan, etc. all seem as terrible if not worse and more organized yet we "have to act to protect ourselves" in one case only?

I don't think for a second that we can act in all of these situations. I just think that the ISIS issue is fear mongering because even if we jump all over them and do what Harper advocates it doesn't actually improve our safety that I can see.

I'm honestly heartbroken and dejected when I read about the institutionalized rape in Isis controlled lands as well as the callous murders they commit, as well as the destruction of ancient artifacts. Sex slaves are bought and sold just like a piece of property with a title and the owners name on it. It disgusts me.

A large part of me wants the West to intervene, not for my own 'safety' but for the sake of the people living in those areas. I'm not sure what kind of intervention is best, but I do see a degree of military force needed. History teaches us that intervention can open a can of worms even worse than the status quo. But, in my opinion, doing nothing doesn't feel right.

[CorsiHockeyLeague]

Apartheid was a pleasant stroll through the park in comparison to what women in those areas sadly have to accept as everyday life. There is a very strong moral case to be made for intervention.

[peter12]

Originally Posted by CorsiHockeyLeague

Apartheid was a pleasant stroll through the park in comparison to what women in those areas sadly have to accept as everyday life. There is a very strong moral case to be made for intervention.

The problem with intervention is that it is always poorly-defined, not very well-supported, and never seems to achieve the goals that drove it in the first place.

We've tried bombing ISIS to great expense, and not very little effect. We have supported their regional opponents with arms, and expertise, with the unintended effect of spreading the conflict through the region. What is next? "Boots on the ground?"

[peter12]

Originally Posted by CroFlames

I'm honestly heartbroken and dejected when I read about the institutionalized rape in Isis controlled lands as well as the callous murders they commit, as well as the destruction of ancient artifacts. Sex slaves are bought and sold just like a piece of property with a title and the owners name on it. It disgusts me.

A large part of me wants the West to intervene, not for my own 'safety' but for the sake of the people living in those areas. I'm not sure what kind of intervention is best, but I do see a degree of military force needed. History teaches us that intervention can open a can of worms even worse than the status quo. But, in my opinion, doing nothing doesn't feel right.

You should join up then.

[CroFlames]

Originally Posted by peter12

You should join up then.

Join what? Isis?

[peter12]

Originally Posted by CroFlames

Join what? Isis?

The Canadian Army.

Everyone likes to talk about the "West" intervening. As if it was some abstract collection of coloured tiles on a game board.

[CroFlames]

Originally Posted by peter12

The Canadian Army.

Everyone likes to talk about the "West" intervening. As if it was some abstract collection of coloured tiles on a game board.

There are no boots on the ground bud. It's purely RCAF right now. I am far from qualified to be in the RCAF.

[peter12]

Originally Posted by CroFlames

There are no boots on the ground bud. It's purely RCAF right now. I am far from qualified to be in the RCAF.

Everyone knows, based on our experience in Kosovo, that bombing campaigns are utterly ineffective. More PR than anything else.

When people talk intervention, they mean "boots on the ground."

[edslunch]

100s of thousands of deaths and millions of refugees across the region not to mention the rise of ISIS and other terrorist groups can be attributed back to the original intervention in Iraq. The unintended consequences are mind-boggling.

Bombing ISIS, as evil as they are, will not improve the overall situation. Unless you go after the benefactors or terrorism - predominately Iran and Saudi Arabia - there can be no meaningful progress. Instead we sell armoured vehicles to the Saudis so I guess that's not going to happen.