Ukraine Presidential Crackdown Violence. Russia Invades Ukraine

[nik-]

Originally Posted by gvitaly

First of all they don't want to be Russian, they want to be independant. Russia is mentioned so often because they wanted its protection, from the newly seized government in Kiev. They started protesting against the government put in place instead of Yanukovich. They were labeled as separatists immediately, no questions asked. Only after they conducted the vote(through the entire region) on whether they want to be a part of Ukraine. Imagine for yourself Quebec finally decided to separate from Canada, should we label all of Quebec's police forces as separatists? Its the same case there why should they leave their homes, their land? Just because a group of 'different separatists' manage to catch power using force in Kiev.

All they said is that we don't want to fund the newly appointed government as well as be a part of the european union. If the rest of Ukraine wants to be a part of it they can go ahead, meanwhile we will keep our ties to Russia(to which about 90-95% of the industries in that region are tied). It wasn't one person that woke up one day, and said I don't want to pay taxes so I don't live in your country. Why not give millions of people a choice? isn't it what democracy is all about? no one wants to conquer Kiev, they just want to be left alone from sponsoring yet another corrupt government.

How many protesters got killed in Kiev that got the whole world riled up? tens? Here thousands of innocents are dying and its business as usual!

To the first bold, so what? Seriously, what difference does that make to the fact that they're committing violence? Absolutely zero, so I'm not sure why you're pointing it out.

To the second, if they're fighting against the forces of the country they're in ... yes, yes they should be considered separatists. And yes I do think they should leave.

Just because you took the RT propaganda bait all the way to the gills, doesn't mean you're going to convince us to do it too.

If they don't want to be part of what the UKRAINE is doing, the country they live in, and they're of Russian decent, go back to the homeland. I know that's at odds with the first statement, but whatever, #### off back to Russia if you think it's so great.

[gvitaly]

Originally Posted by Thor

Well from all reports this is mostly coming from the pro russian side, no doubt as you say both sides are guilty of crimes, but lets not suggest its even. There is no denying Russia's direct involvement in bringing in outside fighters and intentionally destabilizing the region after Moscow became aware that nothing they could do would stop the Ukraine from moving closer to the EU.

This whole thing is a strategic move by Russia to create an environment where they can move militarily into the region and create another false election like they did with Crimea, no doubt Crimea in a fair and monitored election would have gone in favor of separation but that election was a fraud.

Alright lets step one more step back, and we will see that the US, and EU had a hand in the destabilization of the government in Ukraine just prior to Russia's move. Am I justifying Russia's move? no... It was stupid, even though I think they have assets in the Crimea region they had to protect. As for the election being a fraud(why? because your TV said so?), I spoke(not read about) to people that voted for being a part of the Russian Federation. Their main consideration was stability, and not frequent government changes using power. As I said in my previous post, what if Quebec decided to separate from us? would you declare war on Quebec?

These fighters will not accept any kind of mediation, they gladly broke the cease fire multiple times and continue to harass and harm pro Ukrainians in that region. This is after all Ukrainian territory and what they are doing is obviously a move against the Ukrainians and their government, which Kiev HAS to respond to. These fighters, many of which are from outside the Ukraine are under orders from Moscow, these types of wars were predicted a number of years ago as a way for a big nation to justify military action as "intervention to protect our people." Its been textbook stuff by Moscow.

Wow, just wow. First of all if its a Ukranian government shouldn't it be chosen by citizens from all of Ukraine? and not skip separationist regions?(which was conveniently done in this election). The ceasefire didn't have any kind of talks, and not for a lack of trying on the 'separatist' side. The only option they were given from the Ukrainian side was unconditional surrender. I agree there are some groups that are not from the Ukraine and they are not the ones leading the fighting, when you have to fight against tanks and planes you are happy to receive any help you can get.

Well this video is sensationalist, talks to well known mouth pieces that have been very pro Russia in the past, and of course the comparisons to Nazi's and Rwanda is laughable. There are of course fringe right wing elements in Ukraine, but the majority of this response is to an influx of foreign fighters who are intentionally destabilizing the east of Ukraine after they finished up with Crimea.

Also comparing the two sides, only Russian media is outright lying and saying things that are demonstrably untrue. The west certainly has its slant on things, but the BBC, Al Jazeera and other respected outlets all cover this in pretty much the same way, even of course the excellent series by VICE TV did an exceptional job covering this not so covert Russian invasion.

Does the fact they are pro russian speakers make them liars? As for the comparisons words are cheap! I offer to you to fly with me to Ukraine and have a look for yourself. If we survive you can even tell your friends what a joke our media really is.

Yeah no doubt there are people dying, the Ukranian military is trying to reclaim its sovereign territory back from fighters who have vowed to fight no matter what, so bloodshed is going to happen, its horrible to see and wish both sides could sit down and hash out a deal. But its clear that the goal is to force more illegitimate elections in the region to join Russia, as with Crimea.

Sorry but Kiev is fighting rebels hold up in a civilian areas, obviously that means harm is happening to the locals, there is really no way to avoid this if they are to recapture their cities and defeat the fighters. These fighters could offer a real cease fire and negotiate a peace, but their ultimate goal is to annex this huge area of Ukraine and join Russia, Kiev obviously can't allow that to happen.

Again I disagree with you that this territory is of the people living in Kiev that haven't really done to improve the lives of the people in those regions. This territory belongs to the millions of people that lived there their entire lives, whose passport(equivalent of a citizenship card in Ukraine) says they live there. They don't want to be a part of Russia, they wanted independence, but they are begging Russia to protect them. By the way if a person's Ukrainian passport says he/she is from one of those regions it is automatically invalid at the moment all around Ukraine.

Amnesty is widely regarded as being one of the most neutral and honest groups out there, they will gladly call out the US or Ukraine for crimes, and they are as you can see in the links above.

I think what Russia did in Crimea was beyond criminal, and the blame for this uprising in the east is squarely on Moscow's interference to cause instability so they can justify stepping in to protect their people. All of this stems from Moscow's anger and dissatisfaction over Ukraine's desire to move closer to the EU.

As for Amnesty, I am sure it is a good organization... it just seems to not report quite a bit as well lately. Regarding Crimea I said it and I will say it again, yes it was stupid(all things considered). Russia did protect its military assets which were on Ukraine's soil! In my mind the vote was legal, at least as legal as the Ukrainian election of its current government. And I still believe the first step in this chain reaction was the US and the EU destabilizing the previous government in Ukraine. Again If you want, I am willing to fly with you to Ukraine, and you will see for yourself... And yes I understand how unbelievable all my arguments sound, so that's the only thing I can offer as proof.

[Thor]

Originally Posted by gvitaly

Alright lets step one more step back, and we will see that the US, and EU had a hand in the destabilization of the government in Ukraine just prior to Russia's move. Am I justifying Russia's move? no... It was stupid, even though I think they have assets in the Crimea region they had to protect.

Curious as to what the destabilization is that the west did?

As for the election being a fraud(why? because your TV said so?), I spoke(not read about) to people that voted for being a part of the Russian Federation. Their main consideration was stability, and not frequent government changes using power.

Because when you hold elections with armed occupation and segments of the area not voting and obviously non ethnic Russians being intimidated to stay away from voting, and of course the dozens of other observed critiques about this rush election.... I have no doubt Crimea would have gone this way in a legitimate election, but Putin wanted to take zero chances and wanted this to appear overwhelming, there was a lot of theater done for the benefit of not just the west to justify Crimea but to boost Putin's support back home.

As I said in my previous post, what if Quebec decided to separate from us? would you declare war on Quebec?

If foreign fighters started seizing government buildings in Quebec and armed insurrection started? I would certainly HOPE the Canadian government responded to such violence and aggression with the military.

Wow, just wow. First of all if its a Ukranian government shouldn't it be chosen by citizens from all of Ukraine? and not skip separationist regions?(which was conveniently done in this election).

Because the separatists regions were refusing to take part, and obviously in the middle of a war. But even with those historical votes, the current president would have been elected. You cant destabilize a region by your own hands like they did and then cry foul when you are not part of the national discussion, even after the rebels were promised full amnesty if they put down their arms.

The ceasefire didn't have any kind of talks, and not for a lack of trying on the 'separatist' side. The only option they were given from the Ukrainian side was unconditional surrender.

What should they do exactly, if like in your Quebec example, a french separatist group started a armed rebellion, seized power, seized government buildings and terrorized the minority English speakers of the area, how would you then treat them in the future negotiations, AFTER they had been offered already once to lay down their arms and face no prosecution, to which they told Kiev to go to hell and they would never surrender.

I agree there are some groups that are not from the Ukraine and they are not the ones leading the fighting, when you have to fight against tanks and planes you are happy to receive any help you can get.

Moscow has been caught giving orders to rebels, and providing obvious manpower and vehicles, to suggest its the locals in charge and Moscow is just "helping out" is beyond ridiculous. This is the exact same situation done in Crimea, textbook, and this all had its start in Moscow because obviously Crimea is a KEY port they could never risk losing to a potentially unfriendly Kiev government.

Does the fact they are pro russian speakers make them liars? As for the comparisons words are cheap! I offer to you to fly with me to Ukraine and have a look for yourself. If we survive you can even tell your friends what a joke our media really is.

No, I just rely on respectable media outlets, and VICE has been on the ground there since the Kiev riots, which is why their reported was taken hostage by the pro Russia rebels. I certainly have no doubt we have the bias on our side, but suggesting genocide, that Kiev is burning farmers fields, intentionally attacking civilians, this has no corroborating reporting, and unless the western media is completely corrupted, then I call BS on Russia Today's reporting until other media can verify such claims.

Again I disagree with you that this territory is of the people living in Kiev that haven't really done to improve the lives of the people in those regions. This territory belongs to the millions of people that lived there their entire lives, whose passport(equivalent of a citizenship card in Ukraine) says they live there. They don't want to be a part of Russia, they wanted independence, but they are begging Russia to protect them. By the way if a person's Ukrainian passport says he/she is from one of those regions it is automatically invalid at the moment all around Ukraine.

Right, and you fight for independence by voting, by non violent means. At least you start that way, you don't start asking for your independence by rising up in arms, taking over government offices, taking hostages...

You seem to forget that this was all started by violence on the part of the rebels, that they were clearly a part of an orchestrated move by Moscow after Crimea was secure to destabilize and try to give Moscow a much bigger bargaining chip with the Kiev government.

And I still believe the first step in this chain reaction was the US and the EU destabilizing the previous government in Ukraine. Again If you want, I am willing to fly with you to Ukraine, and you will see for yourself... And yes I understand how unbelievable all my arguments sound, so that's the only thing I can offer as proof.

I'm curious as to what the destabilization was, I mean that sincerely since I am not fully up to date on what happened before the riots in Kiev. I would love to go man, honestly I hate seeing what is happening and want the same as you, peace and negotiations.

[gvitaly]

Originally Posted by nik-

To the first bold, so what? Seriously, what difference does that make to the fact that they're committing violence? Absolutely zero, so I'm not sure why you're pointing it out.

To the second, if they're fighting against the forces of the country they're in ... yes, yes they should be considered separatists. And yes I do think they should leave.

Just because you took the RT propaganda bait all the way to the gills, doesn't mean you're going to convince us to do it too.

If they don't want to be part of what the UKRAINE is doing, the country they live in, and they're of Russian decent, go back to the homeland. I know that's at odds with the first statement, but whatever, #### off back to Russia if you think it's so great.

Our main misunderstanding comes because I believe this violence to be self defense against the Ukrainian army. The army didn't come there on a peace mission, it came to conquer and show its power. As for violence before hand, after the government fell, (violent) activists from Kiev were moving to enforce their ideas in those cities(Kharkiv, Donetsk, Luhansk). It started with people trying to protect statues as parts of their cities, and pretty fast slid into more and more violence from both sides!

The first barricades in the region were actually made to disallow traffic of activists from Kiev into those cities, but it seems like everything is forgotten now.

[nik-]

Originally Posted by gvitaly

Our main misunderstanding comes because I believe this violence to be self defense against the Ukrainian army. The army didn't come there on a peace mission, it came to conquer and show its power. As for violence before hand, after the government fell, (violent) activists from Kiev were moving to enforce their ideas in those cities(Kharkiv, Donetsk, Luhansk). It started with people trying to protect statues as parts of their cities, and pretty fast slid into more and more violence from both sides!

The first barricades in the region were actually made to disallow traffic of activists from Kiev into those cities, but it seems like everything is forgotten now.

And that's the core of the chasm we're never going to cross. Armed gunmen trying to force independence aren't defending, they're splitting off. The Ukrainian army came to a part of Ukraine to maintain their territory. They're only "defenders" occasionally in a tactical sense. The separatists are the ones in the wrong. I find it crazy that you can think they're in the right to just split off from the country and as a result of wanting to do so, they're the victims. I guess that Russian propaganda machine is highly effective.

[Teh_Bandwagoner]

Originally Posted by nik-

And that's the core of the chasm we're never going to cross. Armed gunmen trying to force independence aren't defending, they're splitting off. The Ukrainian army came to a part of Ukraine to maintain their territory. They're only "defenders" occasionally in a tactical sense. The separatists are the ones in the wrong. I find it crazy that you can think they're in the right to just split off from the country and as a result of wanting to do so, they're the victims. I guess that Russian propaganda machine is highly effective.

All he's saying is, if I and a group of buddies want to separate Alberta from the rest of Canada, I'm well within my rights to take up arms and start demanding liberation. I'm the victim here because I'm in Canada but don't want to be Canadian.

Long live the People's Republic of Alberta!

[gvitaly]

Originally Posted by Thor

Curious as to what the destabilization is that the west did?

The violent change of government in Kiev if you remember. How did 40,000 paid protesters stayed in Kiev for 3 months(or was it longer?). It takes quite a few resources to take care even of the most basic needs of so many people. And as much as many want to believe, grandmothers taking food out to the protestors would simply not be enough. Think what person with a family to support could stay there for such a period? especially if they weren't getting paid.

Because when you hold elections with armed occupation and segments of the area not voting and obviously non ethnic Russians being intimidated to stay away from voting, and of course the dozens of other observed critiques about this rush election.... I have no doubt Crimea would have gone this way in a legitimate election, but Putin wanted to take zero chances and wanted this to appear overwhelming, there was a lot of theater done for the benefit of not just the west to justify Crimea but to boost Putin's support back home.

Isn't that exactly what Ukraine did before its election? Including justify all the crimes that were done in favor of the coupe, release prisoners, and put other politicians that disagree in jail?
I know the move to seize Crimea was stupid, but the people there wanted to be a part of Russia, and are currently quite happy with the outcome. Must be propaganda again, especially if its people I talk to in person.

If foreign fighters started seizing government buildings in Quebec and armed insurrection started? I would certainly HOPE the Canadian government responded to such violence and aggression with the military.



Because the separatists regions were refusing to take part, and obviously in the middle of a war. But even with those historical votes, the current president would have been elected. You cant destabilize a region by your own hands like they did and then cry foul when you are not part of the national discussion, even after the rebels were promised full amnesty if they put down their arms.



What should they do exactly, if like in your Quebec example, a french separatist group started a armed rebellion, seized power, seized government buildings and terrorized the minority English speakers of the area, how would you then treat them in the future negotiations, AFTER they had been offered already once to lay down their arms and face no prosecution, to which they told Kiev to go to hell and they would never surrender.

They actually seized the power in an effort to protect themselves from so called activists. Its always fun when groups of busses with trained guys(civilians) who posses weapons come to visit. At first it started in an effort to turn those back(not kill, simply such busses were told to turn around and go back- weapons confiscated)

Moscow has been caught giving orders to rebels, and providing obvious manpower and vehicles, to suggest its the locals in charge and Moscow is just "helping out" is beyond ridiculous. This is the exact same situation done in Crimea, textbook, and this all had its start in Moscow because obviously Crimea is a KEY port they could never risk losing to a potentially unfriendly Kiev government.



No, I just rely on respectable media outlets, and VICE has been on the ground there since the Kiev riots, which is why their reported was taken hostage by the pro Russia rebels. I certainly have no doubt we have the bias on our side, but suggesting genocide, that Kiev is burning farmers fields, intentionally attacking civilians, this has no corroborating reporting, and unless the western media is completely corrupted, then I call BS on Russia Today's reporting until other media can verify such claims.



Right, and you fight for independence by voting, by non violent means. At least you start that way, you don't start asking for your independence by rising up in arms, taking over government offices, taking hostages...

You seem to forget that this was all started by violence on the part of the rebels, that they were clearly a part of an orchestrated move by Moscow after Crimea was secure to destabilize and try to give Moscow a much bigger bargaining chip with the Kiev government.



I'm curious as to what the destabilization was, I mean that sincerely since I am not fully up to date on what happened before the riots in Kiev. I would love to go man, honestly I hate seeing what is happening and want the same as you, peace and negotiations.

Moscow was caught? or do you mean the pictures that were proven fake later on? the ones leaked by the US government that were 'by accident of course' fake. Except when they finally admit it, it never reaches the front page for some reason.

Again have a look at how a lot of Kiev was ruined during the coup, violence from the rebels... oh wait they're in power now, so the other side are rebels. And there were groups that did try to use the same tactics initially(idiots I agree). However, the civilians in the Luhansk and Donetsk regions didn't, and only tried to protect themselves from more violent idiots (from both sides).

As I said before, you won't believe me until you will see it for yourself... If you want the last word, its yours; I don't enjoy repeating myself especially when it falls on deaf ears.

My offer to fly there still stands, doubt we will be getting out of there though.

[gvitaly]

Originally Posted by Teh_Bandwagoner

All he's saying is, if I and a group of buddies want to separate Alberta from the rest of Canada, I'm well within my rights to take up arms and start demanding liberation. I'm the victim here because I'm in Canada but don't want to be Canadian.

Long live the People's Republic of Alberta!

Thanks for all the sarcasm. I am saying is that a group of people seized power in Canada using violence, and starts bringing people to stir violence in my region; meanwhile the police force is helpless and the military is doing absolutely nothing(because its waiting to see if our big strong neighbours will let it slide). We as Albertans should be allowed to gather forces to defend ourselves(our wives and our children)! And in that case maybe even say ###### it, we are not Canadians any more because that kind of a government is abusing its power and is not Canadian in my eyes.

[northcrunk]

I wonder how much gvitaly is being paid by the Russian government to post defences of Russia on NHL fan forum?

[Itse]

Originally Posted by northcrunk

I wonder how much gvitaly is being paid by the Russian government to post defences of Russia on NHL fan forum?

Does it really make a difference whether or not he gets paid or he's just a nationalist an idiot who believes someone else who is getting paid?

[nik-]

What I believe is that that green font makes my eyes bleed

[gvitaly]

Originally Posted by Itse

Does it really make a difference whether or not he gets paid or he's just a nationalist an idiot who believes someone else who is getting paid?

Thank you sir, always a pleasure. I never knew that having a different opinion of your own makes me an idiot. You don't believe me go see for yourself

If everything is so peachy you should have nothing to be afraid of over there as a Canadian.

[CaptainCrunch]

Then #### got weird.

[Itse]

Originally Posted by gvitaly

Thank you sir, always a pleasure. I never knew that having a different opinion of your own makes me an idiot. You don't believe me go see for yourself

I suggest you go there to see for yourself. You might feel ashamed of yourself.

Me, I've been to Ukraine a little before the real trouble started, and I'm still in (irregular) contact with Ukrainians living in Lviv and Kiev. You know, real people that I can guarantee actually live there because I've visited their homes, not imaginary RT people.

If everything is so peachy you should have nothing to be afraid of over there as a Canadian.

Your observatory powers really make your case as a critical thinker.

[gvitaly]

Originally Posted by Itse

I suggest you go there to see for yourself. You might feel ashamed of yourself.

Me, I've been to Ukraine a little before the real trouble started, and I'm still in (irregular) contact with Ukrainians living in Lviv and Kiev. You know, real people that I can guarantee actually live there because I've visited their homes, not imaginary RT people.



Your observatory powers really make your case as a critical thinker.

I was born in Ukraine, lived there for more than half a year during the last year and a half. My fiance's mother, and sisters are still there(Lugansk and Krasnodon)... I also have family in Kiev and Lviv, what's your point exactly?!

But thank your for letting me know.

[Itse]

Originally Posted by gvitaly

what's your point exactly?!

You tell me, it was your point originally.

[Teh_Bandwagoner]

Originally Posted by gvitaly

Thanks for all the sarcasm. I am saying is that a group of people seized power in Canada using violence, and starts bringing people to stir violence in my region; meanwhile the police force is helpless and the military is doing absolutely nothing(because its waiting to see if our big strong neighbours will let it slide). We as Albertans should be allowed to gather forces to defend ourselves(our wives and our children)! And in that case maybe even say ###### it, we are not Canadians any more because that kind of a government is abusing its power and is not Canadian in my eyes.

I just want to clarify that you are saying Crimea got seized by the Ukraine through violence? I thought the last time Crimea was seized was by Nazi Germany. Am I missing something regarding the history of Crimea?

Or are you saying Russia is the oppressor? In which case you're right, I agree.

[gvitaly]

Originally Posted by Itse

You tell me, it was your point originally.

First you call me an idiot(alright you are entitled to your opinion), then you say I have no idea what I am talking about, pointing out your vast knowledge of the situation. You tried to render my argument null by saying I only gather my opinion from imaginary RT people. When I point out that I am actually in constant contact with people there, and have been there myself just recently, you ask me what am I trying to prove? Perhaps that I am probably closer to the situation than you are, and your TV, or I am sorry irregular contact with Ukraine. My point still stands come join me lets visit Lugansk, prove me wrong! I will even sponsor your ticket.
Or are you just arguing for the sake of arguing?


Teh_Bandwagoner I am saying that the current government in Ukraine seized its power through violence(a coup).

[Vulcan]

What an over the top video. It looks like they are trying to incite the population for war. From watching it, I once thought of RToday as their equivalent to Fox News but it's worse. What a hell hole the world is turning into the last few years.

[Itse]

Originally Posted by gvitaly

My point still stands come join me lets visit Lugansk, prove me wrong! I will even sponsor your ticket.

Sounds really interesting actually. I'll have to make arrangements, but I'm sure we could find a date somewhere. It might be hard to do much more than a weekend+ for me though, but if you insist I can try to arrange something longer.

Other than that I'm mostly saying that I guess you might actually believe the stuff you're saying or maybe you just feel it's for some reason important to "balance the scales" or something. It doesn't really make much of a difference.

I've read enough stuff from pretty much all sides (offical propaganda from Kiev and Moscow, news reports from various sources, commentary from Ukrainian and Russian groups that don't really have a side in this (ranging from students to hardcore anarchists to libertarian elitists) that I feel very comfortable dismissing your point of view as too heavily distorted to even consider it a point of view that might be useful in comparison. (I'd say extreme, but I've seen the extremely distorted views when it comes to Ukraine...)

This is not to say that I think I know more than you really. It's just me thinking that what you're contributing is too distorted to be of value.

I admit that calling someone an idiot was just me being a dick. I can be like that. But it's less agitating when I do it to people's faces, trust me. I'm actually very sociable in real life.

At least no-ones punched me yet. (Well, not for being a dick.)