Use of Native American Imagery in Sports

[Reggie Dunlop]

Merchandise profits are shared league wide, are they not? (At least they used to be at one point).

[Cole436]

Originally Posted by JohnnyB

I acknowledge all these stats, I agree that there is systemic racism against indigenous people, and I still don't think that it should obligate anyone to pay something like a licensing fee or a tax to use a broad artistic style. Nobody should own styles of art any more than anyone owns a language or a genre. These are things that thrive or die depending on how many people use them. Their broad use should be embraced and their death is the least desirable outcome for anyone who cares about them.

Ideas like forcing the Canucks to pay compensation may come from a place of good intent (including but not limited to hatred of the Canucks), but I think they also diminish discussion of more substantial issues such as decolonization. Expressions of injustice made on behalf of indigenous people in relation to appropriation also often strike me as subtle propagation of the myth of the noble savage and seem maybe a bit infantilizing of indigenous people.

The core of what I posted prior is much larger than Canadian FN, and really only uses them as an example. I don't think anyone is speaking for them, including myself. The only reason historical facts were posted was to make the distinction between ethnicity vs ethnocentrism for a confused user.

This is a larger societal issue about corporations selling imagery from vulnerable communities for profit, while withholding distribution of that wealth from the people they’re making money from.

Indigenous people are just one group in a much larger socioeconomic picture. This issue with the Canucks a microscopic peek into that problem.

The question is, is this aspect of corporate capitalsim something we want to continue to accept as appropriate in society?

[JohnnyB]

Originally Posted by Cole436

...
This is a larger societal issue about corporations selling imagery from vulnerable communities for profit, while withholding distribution of that wealth from the people they’re making money from.

...

The question is, is this aspect of corporate capitalsim something we want to continue to accept as appropriate in society?

Yeah, I'm okay with that. If the corporation is producing something inspired by their imagery but novel and unique, I don't have any issue with it. If they actually replicate someone's unique image that wouldn't be okay with me, but that's not endorsed by the laws of our society anyways.

Maybe you have some persuasive arguments to offer on this?

[corporatejay]

Appropriation is kind of a silly concept. Provided you are using the art/item in a respectful way and not in a mocking or disrespectful way, I really don't see the problem.

[Cole436]

Originally Posted by JohnnyB

Yeah, I'm okay with that. If the corporation is producing something inspired by their imagery but novel and unique, I don't have any issue with it. If they actually replicate someone's unique image that wouldn't be okay with me, but that's not endorsed by the laws of our society anyways.

Maybe you have some persuasive arguments to offer on this?

I think there is a fine line with creation and exploitation. And I want to be clear, my argument isn’t about removing ethnic imagery from society or corporate brands, but questioning our acceptance of private corporations profiting off of disenfranchised communities. When I say disenfranchised I am talking about the loss of privilege due to governments and the same types of corporations now using their image.

This is a complicated and multifaceted issue, and I also don’t have the answers for it. I think it’s very valid when I hear the anger from people in these groups about how they are treated by a society that actively oppresses them, while that same society profits off the idea of them.

I do think corporations need to be more accountable with using that kind of imagery, and I think it’s one of those issues which will have gradual change, likely from small businesses up.

Something to consider is, how well do you think the Canucks logo would have been received if it was introduced in 2020? Do you think a logo evoking indigenous artwork, designed by a white artist would be received well?

[corporatejay]

Cole 436. I want to say your posts on this are well thought out and devoid of shouting racism !!! At everyone. I have valued your contributions to these discussions

[kman35ca]

Cultural appropriation is downright silly imo. Should us whitey's get all bent out of shape when people of other races/cultures wear baseball caps or jeans?
OH, that's right, cause in 2020, white people are just evil. Ya, I'm being facetious, but It really is getting downright ridiculous. Especially when you wake up to this kind of stuff.

https://twitter.com/JCompson_III/sta...14373121011712

[Boreal]

Originally Posted by kman35ca

Cultural appropriation is downright silly imo. Should us whitey's get all bent out of shape when people of other races/cultures wear baseball caps or jeans?
OH, that's right, cause in 2020, white people are just evil. Ya, I'm being facetious, but It really is getting downright ridiculous. Especially when you wake up to this kind of stuff.

https://twitter.com/JCompson_III/sta...14373121011712

Stay on topic.

This has absolutely nothing to do with the use of Native American Imagery in sports.

Vent your insecurities elsewhere.

[kman35ca]

Originally Posted by Boreal

Stay on topic.

This has absolutely nothing to do with the use of Native American Imagery in sports.

Vent your insecurities elsewhere.

It has everything to do with it. All this stuff about the Canucks logo etc, is rooted in a new narrative based on identity politics that's become so popular in the last 5-10 years. Which is just chalked full of illogical bs and resentment thinking 2 wrongs make a right.

As for your comment on my insecurities. I'd love for you to say that to my face.

Bring on the ban hammer. I'm fine with it

[CroFlames]

Originally Posted by kman35ca

It has everything to do with it. All this stuff about the Canucks logo etc, is rooted in a new narrative based on identity politics that's become so popular in the last 5-10 years. Which is just chalked full of illogical bs and resentment thinking 2 wrongs make a right.

As for your comment on my insecurities. I'd love for you to say that to my face.

Bring on the ban hammer. I'm fine with it

Gentlemen, we got a live one.

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by kman35ca

It has everything to do with it. All this stuff about the Canucks logo etc, is rooted in a new narrative based on identity politics that's become so popular in the last 5-10 years. Which is just chalked full of illogical bs and resentment thinking 2 wrongs make a right.

As for your comment on my insecurities. I'd love for you to say that to my face.

Bring on the ban hammer. I'm fine with it

The CDC debating the priority sequence of a vaccine based on age, jobs, poverty level, outcome, etc. and including that race correlates with this things, honestly has zero to do with cultural appropriation of indigenous imagery in hockey.

You didn't understand the topic, didn't do the homework and are now huffing around like a tough guy on the internet while looking like the kid at the back of the class everybody ignores. Embarrassing.

[sketchyt]

Originally Posted by kman35ca

It has everything to do with it. All this stuff about the Canucks logo etc, is rooted in a new narrative based on identity politics that's become so popular in the last 5-10 years. Which is just chalked full of illogical bs and resentment thinking 2 wrongs make a right.

As for your comment on my insecurities. I'd love for you to say that to my face.

Bring on the ban hammer. I'm fine with it

Ah yes, the hallmarks of a right wing snowflake:

• Fights identity politics by initially using identity politics.
• Gets insulted then responds with insults.
• Calls out illogical BS by using illogical BS.
• Talks down to others and uses passive aggressive threats.

[Boreal]

Originally Posted by kman35ca

It has everything to do with it. All this stuff about the Canucks logo etc, is rooted in a new narrative based on identity politics that's become so popular in the last 5-10 years. Which is just chalked full of illogical bs and resentment thinking 2 wrongs make a right.

As for your comment on my insecurities. I'd love for you to say that to my face.

Bring on the ban hammer. I'm fine with it

Sure.

Now explain to me how what the article you posted on COVID has anything to do with the subtleties of the Canucks logo?

[JohnnyB]

Originally Posted by Cole436

I think there is a fine line with creation and exploitation. And I want to be clear, my argument isn’t about removing ethnic imagery from society or corporate brands, but questioning our acceptance of private corporations profiting off of disenfranchised communities. When I say disenfranchised I am talking about the loss of privilege due to governments and the same types of corporations now using their image.

This is a complicated and multifaceted issue, and I also don’t have the answers for it. I think it’s very valid when I hear the anger from people in these groups about how they are treated by a society that actively oppresses them, while that same society profits off the idea of them.

I do think corporations need to be more accountable with using that kind of imagery, and I think it’s one of those issues which will have gradual change, likely from small businesses up.

Something to consider is, how well do you think the Canucks logo would have been received if it was introduced in 2020? Do you think a logo evoking indigenous artwork, designed by a white artist would be received well?

Bringing it back to the Canucks' logo, I don't really see how they're profiting off of indigenous people. This isn't a case of a corporation having taken control of things like land or other limited material or intellectual resources. It's also not, as far as I can see, a case where indigenous people are harmed through the use of the image.

I agree that anger about oppression is valid, I guess I just don't see how something like a logo of a whale made in a style of art that's inspired by indigenous art is actually oppressive. In cases like the Cleveland Indians, the former Washington Redskins, the Edmonton Eskimos or the Chicago Blackhawks, I can see how the names and/or images are part of oppression and promotion of ethnic stereotypes or tokenizing indigenous identities, but in the case of the Canucks it's just a whale.

I also don't see how the year it was introduced or the race of the artist are particularly important either. An act of oppression is an act of oppression. The Redskins name and logo was no less oppressive in the 1930s than in 2020. And as long as the design selection process wasn't discriminatory or oppressive in itself, I don't see how it matters if the artist who drew the Canucks' whale logo was white.

It's definitely a multi-faceted issue, and I'm very sympathetic and receptive to recognition of the oppression of indigenous people in Canada, but the Canucks' logo just seems like an unfair target for anger stemming from those issues.

I could totally understand indigenous artists being upset about the Canucks having associated an indigenous style of art with a garbage hockey team. The style of art in itself deserves more respect. That wouldn't be related to oppression or racism though.

[Blaster86]

This is way to nuanced a conversation for me to be willing to dive into it with my full opinion. The cliff notes of it is I don't really agree with Cole on the issue but also think Kman35ca is an idiot.

Thank you for coming to my TED post.

[Reggie Dunlop]

I see the WHL's Portland Winterhawks dropped their Chicago-derived crest/logo.

https://twitter.com/user/status/1415358836337090565

Should've been done long ago.

https://news.sportslogos.net/2021/07...ears/hockey-2/

[shogged]

That’s a great logo

[MoneyGuy]

Hate the Cheaterhawks but love the logo.

[Aarongavey]

Originally Posted by kman35ca

Cultural appropriation is downright silly imo. Should us whitey's get all bent out of shape when people of other races/cultures wear baseball caps or jeans?
OH, that's right, cause in 2020, white people are just evil. Ya, I'm being facetious, but It really is getting downright ridiculous. Especially when you wake up to this kind of stuff.

https://twitter.com/JCompson_III/sta...14373121011712

Do you think a white person invented jeans?

[Jay Random]

Originally Posted by Aarongavey

Do you think a white person invented jeans?

Jacob W. Davis wasn't white?