Black teen shot and killed by neighborhood watch in Orlando gated community

[burn_this_city]

Some of the arguments being made here against Zimmerman are pretty ridiculous. The entire case has been a joke, and the race baiting by the media is incredibly stupid. Personally I wish the entire thing would go away, there is much bigger news that gets fraction of the attention it deserves because of this case and the follow up coverage.

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by nik-

And all coming from the mouth of the perpetrator. The 911 transcript isn't the voice of god dude, it's the interpretation of Zimmerman himself. Your post was hyperbolic and ridiculous, and I pointed it out. Next time respond to what I actually said instead of creating some new narrative.

Talk about calling the kettle black pal. Your whole line to me as been ridiculous.

While the 9-11 transcript isn't the voice of god its a strong enough narrative of the situation that it was entered into evidence and the prosecution attempt to impeach it.

FFS even Sereno who was a prosecution star witness said that he couldn't detect lies in Zimmerman's story of the events that night.

Don't accuse me about being ridiculous and spewing hyperbole without taking a good long hard look in the mirror yourself.

Anyways, I don't see a point in continuing this. You and I are never going to see eye to eye.

[blankall]

Originally Posted by valo403

Actually a perpetrator is someone responsible for something. Zimmerman is responsible for shooting and killing Martin, regardless of the legal outcome.

No. The perpetrator is the person who has actually committed the crime. The courts decided that no crime actually occurred here. Perpetrator is a word that is used within a legal context similar to accussed, suspect, etc...

In order for their to be a perpetrator, there needs to be a crime.

[nik-]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

Talk about calling the kettle black pal. Your whole line to me as been ridiculous.

While the 9-11 transcript isn't the voice of god its a strong enough narrative of the situation that it was entered into evidence and the prosecution attempt to impeach it.

FFS even Sereno who was a prosecution star witness said that he couldn't detect lies in Zimmerman's story of the events that night.

Don't accuse me about being ridiculous and spewing hyperbole without taking a good long hard look in the mirror yourself.

Anyways, I don't see a point in continuing this. You and I are never going to see eye to eye.

Nope, we won't, but that's fine, it's a heated topic. Obviously.

[Senator Clay Davis]

Goddamn it Obama let it die!

President Barack Obama said Friday that "Trayvon Martin could have been me 35 years ago" in his first live comments since a Florida jury acquitted George Zimmerman last weekend in the teenager's shooting death. He also said protests against the verdict should remain nonviolent.

The president said that Americans are aware of the "history of racial disparity in our criminal laws" and said the government should review some state and local legislation, such as Florida's "stand your ground" law, saying they may promote rather than discourage violent confrontations.

http://www.cnn.com/2013/07/19/politics/obama-zimmerman/

Stoking the fires is not going to help anything.

[Rathji]

Originally Posted by Cowperson

That's kind of a warped observation . . . . . so I'll state the obvious:

...

They were in fact,

1) taken by Trayvon Martin

2) and kept on his cellphone as mementos.

In other words, Trayvon Martin placed a value on those self-portraits.

...

Cowperson

I don't think keeping photos on your phone is any sign of something being important to you, it could equally be claimed that he took them for some random reason and didn't care enough about them enough to delete them.

I think if you looked at pretty much any cell phone for any person in the world (who uses it to take pictures) you will find images on that phone that the owner didn't remember taking, never looked at again once they were sent/posted/whatever, or the owner didn't even know were taken. Most people don't delete these images unless they run out of room to take more.

[valo403]

Originally Posted by blankall

No. The perpetrator is the person who has actually committed the crime. The courts decided that no crime actually occurred here. Perpetrator is a word that is used within a legal context similar to accussed, suspect, etc...

In order for their to be a perpetrator, there needs to be a crime.

Go ahead and look up the definition

[Makarov]

Originally Posted by blankall

Firstly Martin was never detained.

Why was Zimmerman chasing after Martin? If not to stop him and force him to answer questions, etc?

Originally Posted by blankall

And, yes, it was a private gated community. The streets and sidewalks within it were private property owned by the strata.

I see. I'm not familiar with these gated communities? Is there public access?

[FlamesAddiction]

From all the accounts that I heard, he was in the common area of the strata property and he had every right to be there without being badgered about it. Some people are making it sound like he was "on private property" in the sense that he was trespassing.

[blankall]

Originally Posted by Makarov

Why was Zimmerman chasing after Martin? If not to stop him and force him to answer questions, etc?



I see. I'm not familiar with these gated communities? Is there public access?

Define "force".

The whole point of a gated community is to limit public access. Hence the gate.

Either way as an appointed neighbourhood watchman in a gated community, Zimmerman is allowed to approach people and ask them what they are doing there. He was in contact with the police the entire time. He appeared to disengage once police told him to.

[blankall]

Originally Posted by FlamesAddiction

From all the accounts that I heard, he was in the common area of the strata property and he had every right to be there without being badgered about it. Some people are making it sound like he was "on private property" in the sense that he was trespassing.

You have a right to be there, as an invited guest. There's nothing illegal about the appointed captain of the neighbourhood watch asking you about why you are there.

[Makarov]

Originally Posted by blankall

Define "force".

Physically restrain (or attempt to) a person if he or she attempted to leave.

Originally Posted by blankall

The whole point of a gated community is to limit public access. Hence the gate.

Who controls the gate? Again, is there public access? Do I need a key in order to enter the community?

Originally Posted by blankall

Either way as an appointed neighbourhood watchman in a gated community, Zimmerman is allowed to approach people and ask them what they are doing there.

I guess, but only in the same sense that he is allowed to approach people and ask them "how are you?". He has no legal authority to restrain someone who chooses not to talk to him. Indeed, he has no legal authority to touch another person in any way whatsoever without their consent.

Originally Posted by blankall

He was in contact with the police the entire time. He appeared to disengage once police told him to.

That wasn't my impression but I didn't really follow the case in much detail. Obviously, there is a fairly gaping evidentiary gap in the sense that the court did not hear any evidence from Martin.

[blankall]

Originally Posted by Makarov

Physically restrain (or attempt to) a person if he or she attempted to leave.



Who controls the gate? Again, is there public access? Do I need a key in order to enter the community?



I guess, but only in the same sense that he is allowed to approach people and ask them "how are you?". He has no legal authority to restrain someone who chooses not to talk to him. Indeed, he has no legal authority to touch another person in any way whatsoever without their consent.



That wasn't my impression but I didn't really follow the case in much detail. Obviously, there is a fairly gaping evidentiary gap in the sense that the court did not hear any evidence from Martin.

Is there any evidence of Zimmerman physically restrainting Martin?

We have no evidence of close proximity between the two parties until witnesses see Martin on top of Zimmerman. Martin on top of Zimmerman is the only evidence of physical restraint.

[ernie]

Originally Posted by Makarov

Indeed, he has no legal authority to touch another person in any way whatsoever without their consent.

Well unless of course the other person laid their hands on him first then he has every right to do so. And in Florida he then has every right to carry a gun and use that gun if he feels his life is in danger in such an altercation.

The whole reason that I believe Zimmerman was acquitted was because no one knows who laid their hands on the other first. I'm likely oversimplifying things but nothing I saw in any of the things I read answers that question. Oversimplifying of course because it isn't black and white...there is grey when it comes to a guy taunting making it look like they are going to deliver a blow and suckering a guy into it etc.

It's safe to say that both individuals in this acted like asshats. But one asshat had the gun. It's the problem with getting mixed up with asshats...you never know what is going to happen.

[Ark2]

Originally Posted by WhiteTiger

You know what I wonder in all of this? Since everyone's so fond of 'what if' scenario's...I wonder if this would even be being discussed at all if Zimmerman had been a woman. There are female neighborhood watch people. Would anyone be questioning this at all if that was the case?

No chance.

[getbak]

For those wondering, here's the area on Google Maps: http://goo.gl/maps/E13j3

You can go into Streetview and see what it looks like. It's not what I picture when I hear "gated community", which is a 12 foot high wall circling the entire neighbourhood and a guardhouse at an entrance. It's really just a regular neighbourhood with gates at the entrances. Other than preventing unauthorized vehicles from entering the property, the gate doesn't really provide any significant security. Anyone on foot could easily get inside the community.


This site has a good map showing where things happened inside the community: http://www.hlntv.com/interactive/201...ap-interactive

[WhiteTiger]

Originally Posted by ernie

The whole reason that I believe Zimmerman was acquitted was because no one knows who laid their hands on the other first.

And that's the crux of it and what makes all the arguing back and forth silly in the first place. After the 911 operator told Zimmerman to disengage and stay back, he seemed to do so. Then he hung up. The next thing ANYONE who is not Zimmerman saw was Martin on top of Zimmerman pounding on him (Neighbor witness).

Anything that happened in that between time is pure conjecture. Some say Zimmerman stalked and jumped Martin. Some say Martin came back and jumped Zimmerman...but no one actually knows what happened.

[DuffMan]

Originally Posted by blankall

No. The perpetrator is the person who has actually committed the crime. The courts decided that no crime actually occurred here. Perpetrator is a word that is used within a legal context similar to accussed, suspect, etc...

In order for their to be a perpetrator, there needs to be a crime.

Like the Swedish woman in dubai who perpetrated the crime of adultery or whatever

[Plett25]

Originally Posted by DuffMan

Like the Swedish woman in dubai who perpetrated the crime of adultery or whatever

Well I guess... but one incident took place in an uneducated backwater with an archaic legal system, while the other took place in Dubai.

[terminator]

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