Calgary Public Transit - Discussion

[Knalus]

Originally Posted by bizaro86

If you're buying new LRVs anyway, how much more could one's without an operator's cab possibly cost. That seems like it should be cost neutral. Passenger seats should be cheaper than the control equipment, but it would be a new design.

The system is saturated right now, and going to 4 cars adds capacity. That capacity will absolutely get used up, and after that what's our next plan? Switching the middle cars to a higher capacity choice would be a fraction of the cost of doing the 8th avenue subway.

It wouldn't add as much capacity, but it'd be a potentially inexpensive way to add capacity. Sort of like doing it on the cheap so it actually happens.

My opinion: neither the subway, nor the slightly higher capacity cars are the best answer for what to do next along existing lines. Best option: Express routes that target park and riders.

In the south for example: The standard route, an express route that services from the end of the line to Canyon Meadows with no stops between there and Downtown, and a shorter route that runs from the Anderson park and ride through to downtown.

The infrastructure would need to be put in for switching, and allow certain trains to pass each other, but the increases in capacity would be much greater and more substantial than trying to fit another 6 people in between the cars. But the infrastructure should be easier to put in than extending the stations, and it would set up the inclusion of branching routes after that.

[Stealth22]

Sorry to jump back a few pages, but with the new map, it looks like CT have taken a page out of Toronto's play book...then added clutter.

At least to me they look similar...

Spoiler!

[SebC]

Originally Posted by Knalus

My opinion: neither the subway, nor the slightly higher capacity cars are the best answer for what to do next along existing lines. Best option: Express routes that target park and riders.

That would reduce travel times, but it wouldn't increase throughput. The bottleneck is the 7th Ave switches.

[Senator Clay Davis]

I quite like the idea of an express line, though logistically it would be very difficult to pull off at this point. 7th Ave is the same problem, it'd be great to put it underground to both clear up the bottlenecking that happens there and open up another road for vehicle traffic, but how can you do that now without it being a massive headache?

Simply put they never could have predicted the system would need to handle as many passengers as it did, even as recently as the mid 90s when they decided to make new stations Canyon Meadows and Fish Creek only 3 car stations.

[ken0042]

What would be the cost of paying CP Rail to re-route their tracks outside of the Downtown core; as opposed to building an LRT subway? It seems like the downtown route is just so out dated as there is no longer passenger train service, and would free up all that space to run several lines. You would even have enough room for the two existing routes to have their own platforms.

[Joborule]

That's an interesting idea. Probably would cost a lot, lot more though than the subway option.

[frinkprof]

I'm very busy today so I'll try to get some more thorough posts up tonight perhaps. In the meantime though, this one is easy to answer simply.

Originally Posted by ken0042

What would be the cost of paying CP Rail to re-route their tracks outside of the Downtown core; as opposed to building an LRT subway? It seems like the downtown route is just so out dated as there is no longer passenger train service, and would free up all that space to run several lines. You would even have enough room for the two existing routes to have their own platforms.

To quote Carl Sagan, "billions and billions."

We can basically write it off as an impossibility this century for many reasons, only one of which is the astronomical monetary cost.

[bizaro86]

Originally Posted by ken0042

What would be the cost of paying CP Rail to re-route their tracks outside of the Downtown core; as opposed to building an LRT subway? It seems like the downtown route is just so out dated as there is no longer passenger train service, and would free up all that space to run several lines. You would even have enough room for the two existing routes to have their own platforms.

There's still the Rocky Mountaineer.

In general that would be excellent though, but probably never happens due to the $$ of paying CP rail off

[bizaro86]

Originally Posted by Knalus

My opinion: neither the subway, nor the slightly higher capacity cars are the best answer for what to do next along existing lines. Best option: Express routes that target park and riders.

In the south for example: The standard route, an express route that services from the end of the line to Canyon Meadows with no stops between there and Downtown, and a shorter route that runs from the Anderson park and ride through to downtown.

The infrastructure would need to be put in for switching, and allow certain trains to pass each other, but the increases in capacity would be much greater and more substantial than trying to fit another 6 people in between the cars. But the infrastructure should be easier to put in than extending the stations, and it would set up the inclusion of branching routes after that.

I would love express routes, (I would estimate >60% of people leaving downtown towards the NW get off at Dalhousie or Crowfoot) but that wouldn't fix our capacity problem. The trains would get to the ends of the line faster, but we couldn't fit any more in downtown, so frequency couldn't be improved.

[Knalus]

Originally Posted by bizaro86

I would love express routes, (I would estimate >60% of people leaving downtown towards the NW get off at Dalhousie or Crowfoot) but that wouldn't fix our capacity problem. The trains would get to the ends of the line faster, but we couldn't fit any more in downtown, so frequency couldn't be improved.

That's why I specifically pointed out the massive park and ride lots that are only partially used at Anderson Station.

But Downtown frequency is an issue. If any subway is built in Calgary, we seriously need to keep the current tracks in addition to a subway.

[bizaro86]

Originally Posted by Knalus

That's why I specifically pointed out the massive park and ride lots that are only partially used at Anderson Station.

But Downtown frequency is an issue. If any subway is built in Calgary, we seriously need to keep the current tracks in addition to a subway.

I believe that's the plan, to have NW/S line use the subway and NE/W use the current 7th Avenue line.

I don't disagree with you on express, and I think it's a great idea, my only point was it won't increase the capacity of the existing lines. So it's not an alternative to the 8th ave subway or higher capacity "middle" cars, but a complement to them.

[Knalus]

Originally Posted by bizaro86

I believe that's the plan, to have NW/S line use the subway and NE/W use the current 7th Avenue line.

I don't disagree with you on express, and I think it's a great idea, my only point was it won't increase the capacity of the existing lines. So it's not an alternative to the 8th ave subway or higher capacity "middle" cars, but a complement to them.

I always thought it was going to be the NE/W line that would get the subway first, as it would be cheaper to dig a subway along 3rd St N/S than it would to dig one E/W along Stephen ave.

[getbak]

Is there any truth to the rumour that Banker's Hall and the Convention Centre were built with space allocated for the eventual 8th Ave Subway stations?

I know there's space under City Hall, and I've heard that other buildings have them too, but I don't know if that's true or not.

[SebC]

Originally Posted by Knalus

I always thought it was going to be the NE/W line that would get the subway first, as it would be cheaper to dig a subway along 3rd St N/S than it would to dig one E/W along Stephen ave.

Do you mean SE/N?

[Joborule]

Originally Posted by Knalus

I always thought it was going to be the NE/W line that would get the subway first, as it would be cheaper to dig a subway along 3rd St N/S than it would to dig one E/W along Stephen ave.

The city has always planned to make a Stephan Avenue subway since that was the original plan. There's already a station shell in city hall, and some of the newer buildings along Stephan Avenue may have compensated for a future subway line.

I don't get what you mean by going N/S on 3rd street?

[bizaro86]

Originally Posted by getbak

Is there any truth to the rumour that Banker's Hall and the Convention Centre were built with space allocated for the eventual 8th Ave Subway stations?

I know there's space under City Hall, and I've heard that other buildings have them too, but I don't know if that's true or not.

I'm pretty sure the convention space under Banker's Hall is a future part of the subway.

[mykalberta]

I always heard the NE-W line would go to subway (not sure how the engineering would work on that) since the traffic is much lower than the NW SW line.

[Knalus]

Originally Posted by Joborule

The city has always planned to make a Stephan Avenue subway since that was the original plan. There's already a station shell in city hall, and some of the newer buildings along Stephan Avenue may have compensated for a future subway line.

I don't get what you mean by going N/S on 3rd street?

SebC corrected me - I was thinking of the N/SE plans going under 3rd st. instead of the existing routes.

[4X4]

If they build a subway downtown for one of the lines, then they have to build stations for those lines. How about if they were to build the subway as an express thoroughfare for all the lines, with one stop in the middle. That stop could be four lanes wide, and express trains could leave from there and leapfrog the ones that are puttering through DT.
Could save a lot of money on stations (for now), and it would help create an express system.

[ken0042]

Or even reduce the number of stations in the subway to 2. Put one around Centre St and another at 6th street SW. That way you are never more than 3 blocks from a station (from 3 st SE to 9 st SW), and the trains move through even faster.