[News Roundup] CSEC/City arena deal UPDATED: Third Party Facilitator

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by Major Major

Isn't everybody simply putting this through their own trust lens right now? It's either the evil authoritarian mayor or the greedy businessman. Doesn't the thing that still makes the most sense and was even outlined quite heavily in the CSEC release is that this is just the wrong time to build a project of this magnitude?

Why not just present that unified approach?

Edwards probably thinks he can chisel her if he sways public opinion which we're seeing the gears in motion with the Corbella hit pieces.

And Gondek probably got too caught up in power moves and wanted to show too much strength as a rookie mayor.

Agree 100%

Continue to be amazed at people twisting and turning this into a one side fault issue.

[Wormius]

Originally Posted by Manhattanboy

Because of the contempt for Edwards (and now Kenney) many have, including on this board, it wouldn’t matter if our new mayor and her chief of staff turn out to be narcissistic authoritarian liars. They and the city can do no wrong.

It’s simply a bad deal for the City. And you sound like Corbella or Francis on this topic.

If they want our money, then CSEC should arrange with Ticketmaster and LiveNation and tack on a facility surcharge to every ticket and repay us. It’s not like they don’t know how to nickel and and dime us already with random ticket fees.

If this arena is going to bring in so many extra events it shouldn’t be a problem. Or give us a share of all revenues until it’s paid off. What was the CSEC is offering to the public?

[J pold]

So incredibly frustrating from all angles.

The amount of finger-pointing from both the City and CSEC and now the sidelines (Kenny) only makes things worse.

[Manhattanboy]

There was supposed to be a joint presser or statement to that effect that could have avoided much of the ill will. Maybe one party wanted to extend the deadline. Who knows. But it seems things were said or done that led to a breakdown of the trust that is being written about.

[Rutuu]

Originally Posted by -TC-

https://calgaryherald.com/opinion/co...rys-arena-deal

One opinion.. trust of Gondek a major factor in what's played out. Too much risk that the goalposts would be moved again..

My gut says Calgarians will rue the day Gondek became mayor. Her election could have long term negative implications to Calgary, much like electing Iveson has for Edmonton.

This is a very unfortunate situation, one that didn't have to happen, and I don't see a scenario whereby the CSEC comes back to the table. The one chance is if they can find someone to broker the deal and leave Gondek out of it, unfortunately her position of being against it entirely (she voted against it before) precludes that small chance and negates almost any opportunity for success.

Say what you will of the funding model for the Edmonton arena, it's proving to be a huge catalyst for growth and revitalization in dt Edmonton. That means, in the end, everyone gets paid, jobs are created, densification occurs, it means a more robust and sustainable city. Those are all good things.

Calgary could have had that too, if not for electing a zealot as mayor.


EDIT: Just a bit of context. I work with the public sector and contracts play a big part in what I do. I also work with the Edmonton Oilers (mods happy to inform, just not publicly) and have quite a bit of background in this area. The most important thing in a contract negotiation is the trust that all parties are acting in good faith. Without that, there can be no constructive negotiation. That's what failed here. The CSEC took a look at council and Gondek in particular and decided she posed a significant risk and couldn't be trusted to act in good faith.

The edit listing your CV was unnecessary. As someone that despises Edmonton, I'd love if they got rid of Iverson, he's been moving the city of half ideas forward. Anyone that opposes him as "not commercial" I figure used to have dirty deals with previous administrations and now has to tender.

Anyway I've had the Edmonton arena deal figures saved on my phone for years for the very occasion that Oiler fans or Edmontonians one day would laud their fantastic negotiation skills...or the growth catalyst angle for the downtown (likely there has only been a shift of the tax base as other areas of the city lost business to the arena district, so no net benefit of the building...like other cities).

Edmonton Deal included:
Arena
Wintergarden
Pedestrian corridor
LRT connection
Community downtown arena
Arena land

Total Cost: $613.7m
Katz Paid: $27.7m upfront, $137.8m on lease paid over 35yrs
City pays their portion from CRL and Ticket tax and fronted the lump sum for Katz's lease portion

Katz pays operating costs and receives all revenue. The city also signed a $2m/yr "advertising" deal that lasts 10yrs with Katz.

Detroit deal
-Private financing: $538.8 million
-Public financing: $324.1 million
-Previously captured taxes: $34.75 million
-Original public bonds: $250 million
-New public bonds: $34.5 million
-Estimated net closing costs and debt service new bonds: $4.85 million
-Project total cost: $862.9 million

Eye balling the figures, Edmonton tax payers paid 75%, and Detroit tax payers paid 38% on similar vintage deals. The Edmonton deal doesn't include the municipal govt getting strong armed into anchoring the building deal Katz's group got to start construction on the building at 101st and 104th Ave, emptying the existing buildings in the CBD that those govt workers already filled (4 other buildings at the time). That building was sold to aimco ((the public manager of Albertans investment fund) in 2018...another eye roller.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.cbc.ca/amp/1.2681655

Edmonton's deal is small town anyway I look at it, but that's just my opinion.

[powderjunkie]

The notion that if the city gets away with moving the goal posts once, they'll just keep doing it is funny to me...is the counter not exactly true? If CSEC gets away with shirking these costs, they wouldn't keep doing it?


I think it's also noteworthy that the straws that apparently broke the camels back amount to climate change and sidewalks...classic wedge issues.

I think it would have been really interesting to see how CSEC framed things if Gondek didn't do her get out in front of it strategy.

[Rutuu]

Just to add to your points ...

If you want control of the goal posts, don't bring on a JV partner... especially a government one.

[nik-]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

I don’t mind Kenney being criticized at all. I just can’t help but notice that the people calling him out in this thread hate him already and routinely make posts in other threads expressing their hate. The notion that they’re only motivated by a sense of propriety around the role of the premier in municipal matters is comical.

I get a kick out of calling attention to partisanship and don’t intend to stop. If it annoys you that much, put me on ignore.

If by this time you don't think Kenney is trash, are you even a living being?

I voted for the guy and he's easily the most embarrassing Canadian politician in my memory.

[cam_wmh]

Originally Posted by powderjunkie

The notion that if the city gets away with moving the goal posts once, they'll just keep doing it is funny to me...is the counter not exactly true? If CSEC gets away with shirking these costs, they wouldn't keep doing it?


I think it's also noteworthy that the straws that apparently broke the camels back amount to climate change and sidewalks...classic wedge issues.

I think it would have been really interesting to see how CSEC framed things if Gondek didn't do her get out in front of it strategy.

The bias, is blinding, sadly.

[Rutuu]

Originally Posted by nik-

If by this time you don't think Kenney is trash, are you even a living being?

I voted for the guy and he's easily the most embarrassing Canadian politician in my memory.

Never forget Rob Anders...

[powderjunkie]

Originally Posted by -TC-

https://calgaryherald.com/opinion/co...rys-arena-deal

One opinion.. trust of Gondek a major factor in what's played out. Too much risk that the goalposts would be moved again..

My gut says Calgarians will rue the day Gondek became mayor. Her election could have long term negative implications to Calgary, much like electing Iveson has for Edmonton.

This is a very unfortunate situation, one that didn't have to happen, and I don't see a scenario whereby the CSEC comes back to the table. The one chance is if they can find someone to broker the deal and leave Gondek out of it, unfortunately her position of being against it entirely (she voted against it before) precludes that small chance and negates almost any opportunity for success.

Say what you will of the funding model for the Edmonton arena, it's proving to be a huge catalyst for growth and revitalization in dt Edmonton. That means, in the end, everyone gets paid, jobs are created, densification occurs, it means a more robust and sustainable city. Those are all good things.

Calgary could have had that too, if not for electing a zealot as mayor.


EDIT: Just a bit of context. I work with the public sector and contracts play a big part in what I do. I also work with the Edmonton Oilers (mods happy to inform, just not publicly) and have quite a bit of background in this area. The most important thing in a contract negotiation is the trust that all parties are acting in good faith. Without that, there can be no constructive negotiation. That's what failed here. The CSEC took a look at council and Gondek in particular and decided she posed a significant risk and couldn't be trusted to act in good faith.

Bold 1: She also voted FOR it originally

Bold 2: Okay, it's awful...but it is fair to say that it has made a huge impact in redefining a derelict area.

Bold 3: Those conditions don't exist [anymore] in Calgary. We're talking about moving the arena two block north. The Stampede has already bought up the crackhouses and drove away the hookers. The city largely did the same on the north side of the tracks.

17th ave extension and BMO expansion are more significant changes than plopping a slightly nicer arena with better street level engagement two blocks north. No doubt the arena will help slightly accelerate development in the area, but 12th ave to the tracks is likely to remain fairly empty for some time to come either way (there are plenty of blocks to the north and west that are more ripe for development)

[Locke]

At this point I'm inclined to believe that we should get all these clowns in a room and clunk their heads together like a 3 Stooges skit.

[Bend it like Bourgeois]

Originally Posted by Bingo

Agree 100%

Continue to be amazed at people twisting and turning this into a one side fault issue.

I think many are hung up on principled objections that just aren’t real.

The city needs to realize if we want an arena/event centre the options are 600m up front and millions more per year to operate, or that minus whatever the flames can pay.

The flames options are 600m on their own or some part of 600m and op costs for the city. Or moving which brings a bunch of other problems.

Everyone wins, or everyone loses. And yet both sides want to pretend they have leverage.

[powderjunkie]

Random question on the 5th St SE underpass - would the idea be to replicate MacLeod Trails and 4th/5th SW as one way pairs (ie. 4th St SE/Olympic Way would become a one way)?

I'd long heard 6 St SE for the underpass, but I can see how 5th might make more sense.

[Lord Carnage]

Originally Posted by nik-

If by this time you don't think Kenney is trash, are you even a living being?

I voted for the guy and he's easily the most embarrassing Canadian politician in my memory.

May just be me, but I'm living, I don't think he's trash, and even though there have been some Covid missteps, to me he is way less embarrassing than the guy that's supposed to be leading the country...

There is a reason politics is a conversation to say clear of... but we also all understand it's hard to keep separate considering this is a CSEC and City of Calgary deal that fell apart.

[Locke]

Originally Posted by Lord Carnage

May just be me, but I'm living, I don't think he's trash, and even though there have been some Covid missteps, to me he is way less embarrassing than the guy that's supposed to be leading the country...

There is a reason politics is a conversation to say clear of... but we also all understand it's hard to keep separate considering this is a CSEC and City of Calgary deal that fell apart.

Look...I dont think its any secret that I think Trudeau is an idiot. He is so stupid he is actually unqualified to even be King of the idiots.

Between Trudeau and Kenney though? Thats a real 'Sophie's Choice.'

I cannot think of a single redeeming thing that I could list as a positive in Kenney's column.

They both should be catapulted into the Sun.

Kenney not specifically for comments regarding this, but lets just call it 'Body of Work.'

[Manhattanboy]

I'm told the City and Stampede are meeting to discuss changes to the design of the BMO Centre as a result of the arena not proceeding.

[dino7c]

Originally Posted by Manhattanboy

I'm told the City and Stampede are meeting to discuss changes to the design of the BMO Centre as a result of the arena not proceeding.

Here are some renderings of what they have planned

[TheScorpion]

Did somebody in this thread really bemoan using public funds on "homeless hotels" instead of an arena?

Yeah, god forbid public money goes to supporting struggling members of the public who really need it instead of the construction of a private for-profit coliseum. I can't stand people who demonize the unhoused. Spending $300 million on a hockey rink — especially during a pandemic — is a slap in the face to the less fortunate. Everybody should have a warm place to stay. Imagine sleeping out on your front lawn in this minus-30 weather, good grief.

Have some decency. The Flames already have an arena. Building a new one right this second shouldn't be even close to the top priority for this city. If the Flames want it so damn badly, they can figure out a way to build it themselves without draining the city of its funds.

[powderjunkie]

Originally Posted by Manhattanboy

I'm told the City and Stampede are meeting to discuss changes to the design of the BMO Centre as a result of the arena not proceeding.

In hindsight I actually think integrating an arena into the Corral redevelopment as a mega-project could have made sense. Oversimplification, but the two biggest improvements from a new arena are bigger/better concourses and luxury suites. BMO Centre is essentially just big slabs of multi-purpose spaces (ie. concourses)

BMOC is generally more of a 9-5 operation vs. arena mostly evenings and there would be a lot of BOH efficiencies and mutual benefits.

Of course this would require CSEC to play nice in the sandbox with Stampede