Alberta Politics Thread v2

[Roughneck]

Originally Posted by transplant99

Kenney has made it clear now that if elected he will spur reform on the equalization issue by holding a referendum that (if passed by voters) would require the feds to sit down and re-negotiate things in good faith using the SC decision of the Quebec Secession Reference.

Pretty sure you can't require the federal government to do anything unless they agree and approve the question.



Otherwise why hold the referendum on equalization? Just have the referendum for: 'Give us $100B a year, every year, in perpetuity...also no federal income tax or GST in Alberta' and base the good-faith negotiations off of that?



But the bigger question I'd have for Kenney is where the #### was he when his party had a majority and had the power to change the equalization formula? How much leverage does this clown have at the table when they can just say 'how about we just go off the formula you guys used when you were a federal cabinet minister?'

[CaptainCrunch]

If that referendum vote occurred and the Federal Government tried to obstruct it, or play around with it, this province would probably really explode.


Alberta, Saskatchewan and Manitoba all challenged the Equalization formula this fall and the Federal Government basically ignored their concerns and pushed through another 5 year renewal. So as cool as it is to blame Harper and he does deserve the blame, this one is also in a large part on the Liberals who ignored provinces and pushed through a renewal, which allowed Quebec to continue to collect the vast majority of the funds even though they're running budget surpluses and are economically in decent shape.

[transplant99]

Originally Posted by Roughneck

Pretty sure you can't require the federal government to do anything unless they agree and approve the question.



Otherwise why hold the referendum on equalization? Just have the referendum for: 'Give us $100B a year, every year, in perpetuity...also no federal income tax or GST in Alberta' and base the good-faith negotiations off of that?



But the bigger question I'd have for Kenney is where the #### was he when his party had a majority and had the power to change the equalization formula? How much leverage does this clown have at the table when they can just say 'how about we just go off the formula you guys used when you were a federal cabinet minister?'

It's pretty obvious that politically its far more prudent to keep things status quo if you are in power at the Federal level.

Kenney doesn't work for that group any more so if elected here those previous reasons don't exist any longer.

I'm glad he is bringing it up as an election issue though because it is abundantly clear that Ottawa has ignored Alberta like a red headed step child. Regardless of who was in office.

It's time to play the game the ways other have over the years.

[GGG]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

If that referendum vote occurred and the Federal Government tried to obstruct it, or play around with it, this province would probably really explode.


Alberta, Saskatchewan and Manitoba all challenged the Equalization formula this fall and the Federal Government basically ignored their concerns and pushed through another 5 year renewal. So as cool as it is to blame Harper and he does deserve the blame, this one is also in a large part on the Liberals who ignored provinces and pushed through a renewal, which allowed Quebec to continue to collect the vast majority of the funds even though they're running budget surpluses and are economically in decent shape.

Why does Quebec run surpluses?

Perhaps it’s becuase they have a 25% marginal tax
Rate for income over 100k and a 15% tax rate for the first 42k of income.

Government wages are also significantly lower.

[CaptainCrunch]

Great terrific, then they don't need equalization, they figured it out.

[GGG]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

Great terrific, then they don't need equalization, they figured it out.

They have made different choices in how they spend their money. We could make the same choices and be running surpluses. So maybe equalization isn’t the problem it’s made out to be.

Equalization measures fiscal capacity independent of tax rates as it should be.

[Weitz]

Originally Posted by GGG

They have made different choices in how they spend their money. We could make the same choices and be running surpluses. So maybe equalization isn’t the problem it’s made out to be.

Equalization measures fiscal capacity independent of tax rates as it should be.

Equalization is a transfer of wealth from the west to the east. Plain and simple.

We shouldn’t have to tax Albertans even more to not be in a deficit if we are losing billions to other places. Totally non-sensical.

[CaptainCrunch]

Great then lets follow their lead, lets cut all government salaries and change our tax rates. But that doesn't change that the equalization formula is not working when a province running a surplus and a economy that's not in jeopardy is getting a 10% increase in the money they're receiving, and receiving 2/3rds of the pot.

[GGG]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

Great then lets follow their lead, lets cut all government salaries and change our tax rates. But that doesn't change that the equalization formula is not working when a province running a surplus and a economy that's not in jeopardy is getting a 10% increase in the money they're receiving, and receiving 2/3rds of the pot.

Your missing the point.

Alberta generates more money per capita than Quebec. We are currently way better off than they are. We choose to distribute that wealth differently.

If Alberta is in jeopardy (it isn’t) than Quebec is already destroyed.

[GGG]

Originally Posted by Weitz

Equalization is a transfer of wealth from the west to the east. Plain and simple.

We shouldn’t have to tax Albertans even more to not be in a deficit if we are losing billions to other places. Totally non-sensical.

Do you object to the concept of equalization in general that people throughout Canada should be able to access similar levels of service for similar levels of taxation.

Or do you object to the optics of the situation where they are blocking our economic well being while taking “our money”

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by GGG

Your missing the point.

Alberta generates more money per capita than Quebec. We are currently way better off than they are. We choose to distribute that wealth differently.

We are currently running a multi year deficit, currently have very high unemployment and we're trapped by two provinces from getting our product to tide water.



Forgive me for thinking that the system is broken when we're giving money away to a province that doesn't really need it and has been living on it for too long.


Equalization was designed to ensure that provinces has a proper level of social services and programs, Quebec has used it as a constant revenue source.

[GGG]

You sound like a divorced Dad mad that his ex-wife took a trip to Hawaii while he is still paying child support.

[redforever]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

Great then lets follow their lead, lets cut all government salaries and change our tax rates. But that doesn't change that the equalization formula is not working when a province running a surplus and a economy that's not in jeopardy is getting a 10% increase in the money they're receiving, and receiving 2/3rds of the pot.

Quebec (Manitoba too) don't share revenues from their hydro the same as other provinces share revenues from their oil and gas resources.

A quirk in the equalization formula excludes the true value of hydro electric energy produced by Manitoba and Quebec, which sell their hydropower in local markets for below-market prices without penalty. An analogy would be Saskatchewan selling its oil, with a market value of about $95 a barrel, in its local market for $50. The formula is correct to deduct the market price of oil ($95) rather than the artificially low price ($50 in this example) from any equalization payments. The same logic should apply to Quebec and Manitoba’s hydro revenues under the equalization rules — but doesn’t. By creating a massive financial incentive for Quebec and Manitoba to subsidize hydro power heavily, the current arrangements generate market inefficiencies and encourage resource waste.

Between 2005 and 2010, Quebec received $42.4-billion in equalization. Lost revenues resulting from excessively low electricity pricing during that period was $28.6-billion (calculations are available at Fcpp.org). Since the equalization formula deducts 50% as a clawback from additional resource proceeds, an extra $14.3-billion (half of $28.6-billion) should have been deducted from Quebec’s equalization if its hydro revenues were treated the same as Alberta’s oil revenues under the rules. That would yield total equalization payments of $28.1-billion instead of $42.4-billion for the 2005-2010 period.

In other words, the federal government paid 34% more equalization to Quebec than it should have under more equitable rules. Alberta and Ontario taxpayers are effectively paying Quebec (and Manitoba) to consume artificially inexpensive power.

A basic minimum reform of equalization should make hydro revenues subject to the same treatment as revenues from non-renewable sources such as oil extracted in Newfoundland, Saskatchewan and Alberta.

Equalization has stimulated the development of bloated, public-sector-dominated high-tax economies, and created a corrosive dependency syndrome in have-not provinces.

https://nationalpost.com/opinion/pet...ollars-at-work


Harper would not touch the equalization formula in 2014 anymore than Trudeau would touch it this year...elections coming up. That does not make it right but that is how it was and is.

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by GGG

Your missing the point.

Alberta generates more money per capita than Quebec. We are currently way better off than they are. We choose to distribute that wealth differently.

If Alberta is in jeopardy (it isn’t) than Quebec is already destroyed.

This.

The equalisation payments are such a small fish in this whole situation. People are looking at it and saying “oh, the feds are screwing us!” but the fact that Alberta is making more money and is somehow worse off seems to be brushed off.

People keep pointing at symptoms and saying “there! Solve that one! We’ll be fixed!” Equalisation payments, carbon tax, pipeline approvals, whatever it is, people just want the bandaids to make themselves feel better, without looking at the issues that make us sick in the first place.

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by GGG

You sound like a divorced Dad mad that his ex-wife took a trip to Hawaii while he is still paying child support.

pretty obnoxious.

[transplant99]

Originally Posted by GGG

You sound like a divorced Dad mad that his ex-wife took a trip to Hawaii while he is still paying child support.

And you sound like someone who refuses to acknowledge the system that was set up and designed to help the have nots...is severely broken. The proverbial head in the sand guy.

Alberta is a full member of this confederation and has played by the rules its entire existence. It doesn't work anymore and when your other members are purposely preventing you from being a large contributor and helping themselves (which in turn helps others), things have to change.

It's a constitutional issue and Alberta is going to use its ability to use existing laws to attempt to make things equitable. Same argument those say about BC when they took everything associated with TMX to court. Good.

No idea why you would have an issue with that, but whatever.

Im glad he is taking this stance.

[transplant99]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

pretty obnoxious.

Completely.

[GGG]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

pretty obnoxious.

I can’t help it if that’s the extent of your argument. You have argued that Quebec has nice things therefore shiukdnt get equalization. It speaks to a profound misunderstanding of how equalization works.

[GGG]

Originally Posted by transplant99

And you sound like someone who refuses to acknowledge the system that was set up and designed to help the have nots...is severely broken. The proverbial head in the sand guy.

Alberta is a full member of this confederation and has played by the rules its entire existence. It doesn't work anymore and when your other members are purposely preventing you from being a large contributor and helping themselves (which in turn helps others), things have to change.

It's a constitutional issue and Alberta is going to use its ability to use existing laws to attempt to make things equitable. Same argument those say about BC when they took everything associated with TMX to court. Good.

No idea why you would have an issue with that, but whatever.

Im glad he is taking this stance.

The way equalization handles resource revenues is broken and needs work. However ignoring that part of it Quebec would still be a net receiver of equalization.

I don’t disagree with Kenny attempting to reopen the debate to get a better deal for Alberta. I am arguing against a complete misrepresentation of the cost and affect of equalization.

[redforever]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

This.

The equalisation payments are such a small fish in this whole situation. People are looking at it and saying “oh, the feds are screwing us!” but the fact that Alberta is making more money and is somehow worse off seems to be brushed off.

People keep pointing at symptoms and saying “there! Solve that one! We’ll be fixed!” Equalisation payments, carbon tax, pipeline approvals, whatever it is, people just want the bandaids to make themselves feel better, without looking at the issues that make us sick in the first place.

The irritant with equalization payments is that all provinces don't play by the same rules.