Good bye Sweden...

[onetwo_threefour]

Originally Posted by Thor

Enclaves is fine, but this is impacting on incompatibilies of cultures adhering to a very specific set of religious beliefs.

Examples of the growth of anti-semitism in recent events in France and Sweden towards jews by middle eastern immigrants is a perfect example of these problems.

Malmo had a jewish support protest recently with about 100 jews and non jewish supporters which was overlooked by 100's of muslims waving palastine flags and hurling eggs, rocks and even a few small home made bombs. All the while the swedish police stood by not even moving in when a small bomb was thrown near the jews.

Eventually the jewish protesters who were peacefully demonstrating and listening to songs of peace and solidarity were told to disperse.

I'll try to find a video of it.

There is also the Jewish young man kidnapped and murdered by muslims in France which the abuctors called the man's parents while they recited passages from the Koran when in the background they could hear this son scream from the torture.

Isolated incidents, but its pretty clear what even moderate muslims are taught about the evil jew.

But don't these examples just bring you back Valo's point earlier on that that respect and tolerance for these other cultural/religious traditions stops once it infringes upon the rights of others. It may seem inconsistent, but I am fully behind the prosecution of a guy like Ernst Zundel not because he's an anti-semite, but because he used a platform provided by our public education system to preach his hate. Largely though, it is the responsibility of a free and democratic society to allow a marketplace of ideas IMO. While I personally detest the jihadist message and feel it is as much a fairy tale as the Bible, or the pholosophy of a guy like Zundel, the fact is that I dsagree with censorship of the belief systems of those that hold these views in the private arena. To the extent that our society allows individuals to hold and communicate these beliefs in Churches, around the family table or the like, it seems to me that there will always be enclaves or pockets of extremism in any democratic country.

Your point with respect to anti-semitism is well taken, but I think anti-semitism is a historical special case. I don't know that we're seeing a rise of some new anti-semitisim, but rather the stoking of smoldering anti-semitism that has always been present, but the expression of which had become politically incorrect. For whatever reason, northern Europe has always had a healthy (or unhealthy, I suppose) level of anti-semitism beneath a more civilized veneer. It is definitely unfortunate, but I don't think that suppressing jihadist (or moderate muslim in your view) expressions of anti-semitism is the solution to the problem of anti-semitism itself. The root causes of anti-semitism need to be addressed rather than the symptom. Obviously that's far easier said than done and the symptoms can't be ignored in the meantime, but that's where the standard checks and balancing of rights in a democratic society comes into play IMO. You address the overt experession of hatred and any associated violence with laws, and work towards a diplomatic resolution of the underlying question.

[Thor]

Originally Posted by onetwo_threefour

But don't these examples just bring you back Valo's point earlier on that that respect and tolerance for these other cultural/religious traditions stops once it infringes upon the rights of others.

I agree with that.

It may seem inconsistent, but I am fully behind the prosecution of a guy like Ernst Zundel not because he's an anti-semite, but because he used a platform provided by our public education system to preach his hate. Largely though, it is the responsibility of a free and democratic society to allow a marketplace of ideas IMO. While I personally detest the jihadist message and feel it is as much a fairy tale as the Bible, or the pholosophy of a guy like Zundel, the fact is that I dsagree with censorship of the belief systems of those that hold these views in the private arena. To the extent that our society allows individuals to hold and communicate these beliefs in Churches, around the family table or the like, it seems to me that there will always be enclaves or pockets of extremism in any democratic country.

Its such a difficult ideal, free speech and the marketplace of ideas. There is great power in free speech and its at times very difficult to support when its used in hate speech. I think the line is drawn at threats, which is fine, but no further.

There is the question of what is acceptable, "Death to Jews" "Jews are evils scum" ..? You see my point, I think we can allow anything really that isn't a threat and in the case of a teacher teaching anti-Semitic speech in a position of power and influence deemed morally reprehensible to society ( a much tougher debate for sure.)

The root causes of anti-semitism need to be addressed rather than the symptom. Obviously that's far easier said than done and the symptoms can't be ignored in the meantime, but that's where the standard checks and balancing of rights in a democratic society comes into play IMO. You address the overt experession of hatred and any associated violence with laws, and work towards a diplomatic resolution of the underlying question.

Agreed, albeit it this will be a very difficult, frustrating and accusation filled decade of tensions and intolerance. Doesn't help much the world economy is struggling, we all know that can be a spark to ignite a dangerous movement as history has shown us over and over.

[Henry Fool]

Originally Posted by Thor

[...]
Isolated incidents, but its pretty clear what even moderate muslims are taught about the evil jew.

You're really on a roll there, mr Moderate.

Incredible that you're allowed to express such nasty generalisations as if they're part of normal civilized discourse as they long as they are about muslims. Of course they're all rationally justified conclusions if you're inclined to believe the worst about muslims - that is, by racist logic.

Try this: go back to your posts and change muslims to any other group of people. See how it sounds. Or better yet, go get some history books and see how jews have been described in the course of Europe's proud history of demonizing the other.

I don't buy your fake-liberal "shades of gray" waffle for a second. Societies are never problem-free, but racism happens to be one of those rare black-and-white issues. You're a total hypocrite crying about anti-semitism while at the same time showing no real concern for a much wider-spread form of racism.

You can act this is some pleasant afternoon tea party conversation and hope others will somehow disregard what you're actually saying and see you as taking the moderate high road, but the reality is that if we're serious about what is progressive about our culture, poisonous views like yours should be given as little breathing room as possible.

[Thor]

I don't need to defend my self from you henry, I'm sure the posters of whom I debate with regularily here will tell you I'm no racist intolerant hipocrite.

I'd love to debate with you if you were even mildly interested in a real discussion rather than ad hominem attacks and insults.

[Huntingwhale]

[Cheese]

Here is a website that is created by an ex Muslim talking about this issue....
(do I buy all of his rants? no, not entirely, but Im sure some of it is based on fact)

Pat Condell though? Mostly crap.

http://www.al-rassooli.org/

Having been born in the Middle East, and as a fluent Arabic speaker who’s spent around 3 decades studying this topic intensely I feel well qualified to explain that actually, despite what a great many people would love you to believe, Muslims DO NOT become “radicalised” as a reaction to anything that Britain, or Sweden or indeed the USA or even Israel (a favourite but totally bogus excuse) has “done” to anyone anywhere in the world or at home….. no, we Muslims “radicalise” each other…. It starts off on a small scale (with a small concentration, or community, of Muslims anywhere in the world all appearing harmless and peaceful and pleading for special consideration and demanding “rights” and “protection” and claiming to be a threatened and vulnerable minority) then it steadily builds to a huge screaming, moaning and insanely illogical mob of Muslims (not all, note, but an ever growing percentage in any of the ever growing “communities” of non-integrating Muslims all working steadily to nurture and enforce their little part of the assumed new European Caliphate here in “Dar al Harb”, i.e. Islam’s “territory of war”)…..


The funny thing is that while European Governments (such as in Britain) desperately search for the cause of all this growing “radicalisation” the answer’s been well and truly documented and published on a colossal scale for over 1400 years! It’s simply a part of the core game-plan of Islam that at any one time a steady percentage of Muslims are always inspiring (or deceiving) each other into working up a little jihad here and there (and “jihad” is not some vague spiritual thing but physical warfare, although it may be very covert and deviously) and happily looking forward to dying in the process……


In reality there is of course no such thing as “radical” Islam; there is only Islam (but it is practised by different sects of Muslims – e.g. Sunnis or Shias – endlessly fighting and killing each other in a never ending battle to take control of it). Most Muslims in the Western world are simply not observing or practising all of the rules and mandatory instructions (such as killing non-believers or completely disregarding local “man-made” laws in any particular country in favour instead of extremely brutal and simplistic sharia “laws”). What happens is that certain Muslims can make (sometimes through intimidation) other Muslims feel guilty or worried about not being “good enough Muslims” (perhaps by pointing at, say, the way western women dress or some other irrelevance) and so they become “radicalised” with any number of ready made excuses…. propagating and publicising these excuses is part of the propaganda war of jihad that they have each become engaged in – don’t be taken (or out!!!!) by them.

Kind regards,
IQ al Rassooli

[Zevo]

Originally Posted by Henry Fool

You're really on a roll there, mr Moderate.

Incredible that you're allowed to express such nasty generalisations as if they're part of normal civilized discourse as they long as they are about muslims. Of course they're all rationally justified conclusions if you're inclined to believe the worst about muslims - that is, by racist logic.

Try this: go back to your posts and change muslims to any other group of people. See how it sounds. Or better yet, go get some history books and see how jews have been described in the course of Europe's proud history of demonizing the other.

I don't buy your fake-liberal "shades of gray" waffle for a second. Societies are never problem-free, but racism happens to be one of those rare black-and-white issues. You're a total hypocrite crying about anti-semitism while at the same time showing no real concern for a much wider-spread form of racism.

You can act this is some pleasant afternoon tea party conversation and hope others will somehow disregard what you're actually saying and see you as taking the moderate high road, but the reality is that if we're serious about what is progressive about our culture, poisonous views like yours should be given as little breathing room as possible.

Why don't you try attacking the post instead of the poster.

You come across as much less of a moderate than Thor does.

He is giving you his viewpoint through the eyes of people he knows who reside there and live the situation.

What do you do? Lob insults.

Henry fool indeed.

[Henry Fool]

Originally Posted by Thor

I don't need to defend my self from you henry, I'm sure the posters of whom I debate with regularily here will tell you I'm no racist intolerant hipocrite.

I'd love to debate with you if you were even mildly interested in a real discussion rather than ad hominem attacks and insults.

Well, it's a shame that the debate itself is so ugly that it takes a special kind of shades-of-gray moderate to be able take part in it with such lack of passion.

Beyond your evasive maneuvering, you're in effect collecting an anti-muslim dossier, listing all the ways in which they are too violent and backward to ever be part of western culture.

People negotiate their cultural differences in their daily lives all over the world without any big ideological issues like the Clash of Cultural Idealizations arising. But it needs to happen in good faith, not under oppressive demonization of the vulnerable minorities by the dominant culture (that always, always pretends to be the victim), or it will have exactly the opposite result from what people like you claim to hope for. And let's not be naive, that's precisely what a lot of people secretly want to see happen.

It could happen naturally and in good faith everywhere were it not for the cynical political manipulators and their racist audiences trying flare up the cultural clash they pretend to be concerned about. The more contact one has with immigrants, the less they seem like a threat.

[Zevo]

Originally Posted by Henry Fool

Well, it's a shame that the debate itself is so ugly that it takes a special kind of shades-of-gray moderate to be able take part in it with such lack of passion.

Beyond your evasive maneuvering, you're in effect collecting an anti-muslim dossier, listing all the ways in which they are too violent and backward to ever be part of western culture.

People negotiate their cultural differences in their daily lives all over the world without any big ideological issues like the Clash of Cultural Idealizations arising. But it needs to happen in good faith, not under oppressive demonization of the vulnerable minorities by the dominant culture (that always, always pretends to be the victim), or it will have exactly the opposite result from what people like you claim to hope for. And let's not be naive, that's precisely what a lot of people secretly want to see happen.

It could happen naturally and in good faith everywhere were it not for the cynical political manipulators and their racist audiences trying flare up the cultural clash they pretend to be concerned about. The more contact one has with immigrants, the less they seem like a threat.

But don't you think the onus should be on the immigrants to adapt to thier new homeland and not the other way around?

I agree they should be allowed to practice thier religion and such, but there should be some give and take both ways, and some times it seems to me they want to have thier cake and eat it too.

[Henry Fool]

Originally Posted by Zevo

Why don't you try attacking the post instead of the poster.

You come across as much less of a moderate than Thor does.

He is giving you his viewpoint through the eyes of people he knows who reside there and live the situation.

What do you do? Lob insults.

Henry fool indeed.

Quite. But I don't pretend to be a moderate when it comes to racism and I'm not the least bit squeamish about insulting someone who I see as a willing part of the problem while pretending to be seeking solutions.

I "live in the situation" as well, and I suspect that I've had more personal contact with muslim immigrants than someone like Thor, who couldn't possibly believe what he believes if he came face to face with immigrants on equal terms in his daily life. Don't believe the hype. People are exaggerating the issues for political and racist reasons.

[Thor]

Originally Posted by Henry Fool

Well, it's a shame that the debate itself is so ugly that it takes a special kind of shades-of-gray moderate to be able take part in it with such lack of passion.

I prefer to talk calmly, sorry if that isn't how you like debate things.

Beyond your evasive maneuvering, you're in effect collecting an anti-muslim dossier, listing all the ways in which they are too violent and backward to ever be part of western culture.

I guess I need to preface constantly with some, so that you don't assume I'm describing every single muslim. Most people get that, but you jump to the assumption that I am speaking of all muslims, no exceptions.

People negotiate their cultural differences in their daily lives all over the world without any big ideological issues like the Clash of Cultural Idealizations arising.

Very true, yet people live their daily lives in parts of the world with clashes of culture and relgion.

But it needs to happen in good faith, not under oppressive demonization of the vulnerable minorities by the dominant culture (that always, always pretends to be the victim), or it will have exactly the opposite result from what people like you claim to hope for. And let's not be naive, that's precisely what a lot of people secretly want to see happen.

Demonization is not the solution, but to deny the actual problems that are facing people is also not the solution. You seem very keen to suggest there is really nothing to this current concern over islam in Europe and that those who say they do are racists. You have no idea what I secretly want to happen, stop playing this game.

It could happen naturally and in good faith everywhere were it not for the cynical political manipulators and their racist audiences trying flare up the cultural clash they pretend to be concerned about. The more contact one has with immigrants, the less they seem like a threat.

I was an immigrant in Canada, mind you not a visible minority so that is a vast difference from what visible minorities go through. I certainly have a clue what immigrants go through, but to suggest I understand what Muslims face in western nations would be disengenious.

I'm curious, besides the issue of race here which you imply is my problem, do you think the beliefs of Islam work well in a democratic society if followed devotionally as a devout Muslim would.

[Henry Fool]

Originally Posted by Zevo

But don't you think the onus should be on the immigrants to adapt to thier new homeland and not the other way around?

I agree they should be allowed to practice thier religion and such, but there should be some give and take both ways, and some times it seems to me they want to have thier cake and eat it too.

My point is that it's to a large degree an artificially manufactured problem. The idea that as a group they're not trying to adapt is a complete and utter lie. No one apart from extremists on both sides disagrees that where there is some potential for clashing cultural practices, there's going to have to be some give and take within the limits of the country's laws and general values. And the potential for that clash is not within some domain of essentialized general cultures that are logically incompatable, but within manageable concrete practices. That's something societies have been negotiating all through the history of human civilization.

It's cheap and cowardly to point at the supposed evils of others when there's too little good faith and honest willingness to understand in the dominant culture that dictates the terms of the entire discourse. Now we can already hear the usual protestations - but take it slow and consider whether or not having good faith and understanding really means having to give up some valuable part of our own culture. Plainly it doesn't, we're not asked to give up anything at all, but such is the power of ideas that many people assume that's the case. And then consider whether or not we can trust those who with apparent best intentions try so very hard to convince us that the two civilizations can't possibly co-exist, like it's cat and dogs, the Big Clash is inevitable.

[Henry Fool]

Originally Posted by Thor

[...]
I'm curious, besides the issue of race here which you imply is my problem, do you think the beliefs of Islam work well in a democratic society if followed devotionally as a devout Muslim would.

First of all, racism isn't simply a personal problem but also a structural issue of concrete and discursive practices. I don't have any reason to doubt that you have no deep emotional animosity towards any particular group of people, but that does not mean you're not engaged in a racist practice when you do your best to sustain and disseminate racist generalizations.

I know from studying Islam and from personal experience that there is no reason why a devout muslim can't live in a democratic society just as well as a devout christian or jew can. And I have to say that it's pretty sad that things like that even need to be said. Don't allow extremist views from either side to set the parameters of the discussion. You can find out for yourself by talking to people.

The real problem is that a lot of people work very vigorously to make it so that the west equates Islam with barbarism and muslims associate western democracies with war and racist intolerance. That's the plan and it's depressing how many are willing to play along.

Our wonderful tolerant democracies don't necessarily look so great from the point of view of an immigrant who has to deal with daily racism and relentless demonization in the media or from the point of view of someone in the Middle East living under a constant threat of our wonderful tolerant democratic wars. Make no mistake about it, we do look like total hypocrites.

[Cheese]

Originally Posted by Henry Fool

First of all, racism isn't simply a personal problem but also a structural issue of concrete and discursive practices. I don't have any reason to doubt that you have no deep emotional animosity towards any particular group of people, but that does not mean you're not engaged in a racist practice when you do your best to sustain and disseminate racist generalizations.

I know from studying Islam and from personal experience that there is no reason why a devout muslim can't live in a democratic society just as well as a devout christian or jew can. And I have to say that it's pretty sad that things like that even need to be said. Don't allow extremist views from either side to set the parameters of the discussion. You can find out for yourself by talking to people.

The real problem is that a lot of people work very vigorously to make it so that the west equates Islam with barbarism and muslims associate western democracies with war and racist intolerance. That's the plan and it's depressing how many are willing to play along.

Our wonderful tolerant democracies don't necessarily look so great from the point of view of an immigrant who has to deal with daily racism and relentless demonization in the media or from the point of view of someone in the Middle East living under a constant threat of our wonderful tolerant democratic wars. Make no mistake about it, we do look like total hypocrites.

As mentioned many many times...the extremist Muslim likes to blow people up, themselves included, for the glory of god and multiple virgins.
The western world does not hear or see the "moderate Muslims" up in arms, or writing the editors of the local papers, lamenting the poor decisions of their compatriots. The extremist Christian is simply a festering pussing sore on society, typical to the Westboro Baptists. We look at them and feel sorry for their ignorance.
Time for the moderates to stand up and say enough is enough to those that want to lead them astray.

[Henry Fool]

Originally Posted by Cheese

As mentioned many many times...the extremist Muslim likes to blow people up, themselves included, for the glory of god and multiple virgins.
The western world does not hear or see the "moderate Muslims" up in arms, or writing the editors of the local papers, lamenting the poor decisions of their compatriots. The extremist Christian is simply a festering pussing sore on society, typical to the Westboro Baptists. We look at them and feel sorry for their ignorance.
Time for the moderates to stand up and say enough is enough to those that want to lead them astray.

Usually there a political motives for the attacks, it's not simply my religion against yours. But that's a little beside the point. If you pay attention, everytime there is an attack, there is no shortage of religious leaders denouncing it in public. The moderates, that is the mainstream majority of muslims, try very hard to dissociate themselves from the extremists - for obvious reasons. The problem is that being a minority with little power, their voices aren't always heard very loudly at all. But if you pay attention carefully, you can see that the moderates do stand up.

We have to realize that we are contributing to the problem. We are not just victims. We can't create the insane situation where we're asking or forcing immigrants to assimilate into societies that openly hate them. It should be obvious that's not going to lead into anything good.

Our intolerance is one of the main propaganda tools of the extremists: they can say, if this is liberal democracy, clearly it's nothing we want to take part in. And that does have some force to someone who is simultaneuously being rejected by the dominant culture and blamed for not fully embracing it.

[ynwa03]

Originally Posted by billybob123

Does anyone here know if that restaurant forces women and children to go into the "family" section? Because that is the only way your "coloured" analogy stands.

Has anyone here ever seen the trains in India or Egypt? They have similar "women and children" only cars. Not for a discriminatory purpose, it's so that the women can travel without being harassed. What does everyone say about that?

It's pathetic to read some of the stuff in here. The reason why there would be a women and children area anywhere is because of what you mention above. It's more out of respect than discrimination. It is utter ignorance to suggest a restaurant having a kids/womens section is discriminating against these groups. In Muslim cultures men and women do not mix in a public place like a restaurant because it makes it easier to not get into uncomfortable situations with the opposite sex. This unwillingness to mix goes both ways, and i would argue that, in fact, more women like the idea than men do. Creating a women/childrens section in a restaurant is more an accommodation than anything else. If it is done to oppress and discriminate, then the person oppressing and discriminating should be held accountable.

[ynwa03]

Originally Posted by Cheese

As mentioned many many times...the extremist Muslim likes to blow people up, themselves included, for the glory of god and multiple virgins.
The western world does not hear or see the "moderate Muslims" up in arms, or writing the editors of the local papers, lamenting the poor decisions of their compatriots. The extremist Christian is simply a festering pussing sore on society, typical to the Westboro Baptists. We look at them and feel sorry for their ignorance.
Time for the moderates to stand up and say enough is enough to those that want to lead them astray.

Again, this comes off as rather ignorant. I went to a Friday Prayer last week where the 'extremist' muslim gave a lecture on not parking in reserved parking spots because it's a transgression against those who they are meant for, let alone speaking against suicide bombers. Anyone who knows any muslim that is half educated about his/her religion knows suicide bombing is against Islam on so many levels, yet people just can't seem to help themselves from bringing up this nonsense.

You are aware that the KKK regarded itself as a Christian group? They were, by all means, fairly extremist. By your analogies, I should consider all Christians to be white supremacists, even though most of them would denounce the KKK.

[amorak]

Move somewhere new - take on their traditions. Want to keep your culture of lamentable and despicable morality? Stay home.

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by ynwa03

Again, this comes off as rather ignorant. I went to a Friday Prayer last week where the 'extremist' muslim gave a lecture on not parking in reserved parking spots because it's a transgression against those who they are meant for, let alone speaking against suicide bombers. Anyone who knows any muslim that is half educated about his/her religion knows suicide bombing is against Islam on so many levels, yet people just can't seem to help themselves from bringing up this nonsense.

You are aware that the KKK regarded itself as a Christian group? They were, by all means, fairly extremist. By your analogies, I should consider all Christians to be white supremacists, even though most of them would denounce the KKK.

But that truly doesn't explain the recent growth of home grown radicals who have been corrupted in Mosques and schools.

Its great to say that its not happening, but we are seeing it in specific examples.

Its great to say that anyone who is half educated about Islam knows that suicide bombing is against their religion, yet we do see a willingness in liberal democracies by home grown terrorists because they've been told by their Iman that its alright.

If you do want to lay blame, then it is the responsibily of members of mosques to either report or expell someone who's teaching radicalized versions of their faith, not accept it because of community fears.

[burn_this_city]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

But that truly doesn't explain the recent growth of home grown radicals who have been corrupted in Mosques and schools.

Its great to say that its not happening, but we are seeing it in specific examples.

Its great to say that anyone who is half educated about Islam knows that suicide bombing is against their religion, yet we do see a willingness in liberal democracies by home grown terrorists because they've been told by their Iman that its alright.

If you do want to lay blame, then it is the responsibily of members of mosques to either report or expell someone who's teaching radicalized versions of their faith, not accept it because of community fears.

I'd say the majority of these guys are becoming radicalized via the internet. Besides, in the prominent cases in Europe, the majority of the radicals were all from the same mosque in Hamburg. Hardly a widespread phenomenon.

To Cheeses assertion that the radical christians are just a scab or whatever, hogwash, who blew up the federal building Oklahoma? A wacko and his buddy avenging the deaths of a bunch of radical christians in Waco.

We shouldnt be dicing psychopaths up by religion.