The S.E. gets the short end ...again

[Resolute 14]

Originally Posted by ken0042

And if council adopts option 3 with the mayor also in favour of that option; then he would have failed to keep his promise to make the SE LRT a priority.

That's a bit of a false dichtonmy, no? Nenshi did say that securing funding for the SE LRT was one of his priorities, but if the province were to say no to using this money for that project, why shouldn't he and council use it elsewhere and continue to look for LRT funding?

[Jimmy Stang]

Originally Posted by ken0042

And if council adopts option 3 with the mayor also in favour of that option; then he would have failed to keep his promise to make the SE LRT a priority.

Not at all. You need to separate this funding from the level of priority of the SE LRT. They cannot exist together, and that's not Nenshi - that's the provincial government.

City council (including but not exclusively Nenshi, of course) has a simple choice - utilize the money for something that can be approved, or lose it. It hardly seems responsible for any mayor (because this would have been the exact same scenario for McIver) to throw away hundreds of millions of provincial grants.

The SE LRT remains a top priority when appropriate funding becomes available. This funding is not appropriate for it because of the strings attached to it by the province.

[ken0042]

Originally Posted by JustAnotherGuy

Can you please show where Nenshi said he would make the SE LRT a priority? Thanks.

I had something in mind about how I had heard about it from an interview- then decided to google it. How about Nenshi's Facebook profile- does that work for you? Here he talks about how he finds the Herald article misleading. http://www.facebook.com/NaheedNenshi...67968763231754

His comments before the election about the SE LRT almost had me voting for him. The only thing holding me back was that I had looked Ric in the eye, told him he had my support, and shook his hand. I was actually pleased to see Nenshi win.

My bottom line is I expect my mayor to "go to bat" for the residents of Calgary, and find a way to make things happen. As mayor he has direct contact with the Premier, and the federal ministers in charge of finance and infrastructure. He may be just one of the 15 city councilors, but he is the guy in charge; and he is the guy who can make things happen.

Sure, the Feds and the Province may say they have money for one kind of project; it is up to him to show that the money is better spent elsewhere. We sure aren't going to see any initiative from Stelmach, and once you get onto the Federal level we are no longer the largest voice. (Nevermind the fact that the Conservatives know they are safe in Calgary without having to allocate any extra funds here.)

[SebC]

I think there's a lot of misdirected anger in this thread. Your anger should be directed to the Stelmach government. You know, the guys who attached the strings to the funding.

[stampsx2]

I'm starting to think Nenshi knows nothing about moving traffic and getting people around. Less LRT more BRT, interchanges not being the answer, a tunnel which will help a fraction of the people a new LRT would, 14th st brt instead of ring road etc.

Looks like Calgary is in for a few years of pain. Glad I didn't vote for him.

[getbak]

Does anyone think McIver would have or could have done anything different?


First of all, so far, there has only been a recommendation made to Council, Nenshi and the rest of council won't be debating it until tomorrow.

The recommendation is based upon the likelyhood of the proposal being submitted to the Province being approved.

It doesn't make sense to submit a proposal that is likely to get rejected because then you'll get no money for any projects. The Province wants the Green-TRIP money to start going to work now. At minimum, the SELRT won't break ground until the West LRT is open and all of the existing 3 car stations are upgraded to handle 4 car trains.


Here's the Province's website about the Green-TRIP program: http://www.transportation.alberta.ca/4280.htm

There is a link to FAQs about the program. These are the two most important with regards to the topic at hand:

7. What are the funding guidelines for projects?
Project submissions will be assessed on a competitive basis, in part to the extent they advance Alberta government priorities as well as local or regional transportation priorities. Each submission must include a solid business case that demonstrates appropriate cost-sharing and a clear commitment to sustain the operations of the project once it is in place. Applicants must contribute a minimum of one-third of the capital cost of their project.

8. Project submissions must demonstrate that a project can help advance government priorities. What are these priorities?
The Alberta government’s priorities include:
• implementing the 20-year Strategic Capital Plan;
• investing in priority projects that contribute to a safe and world-class transportation system that supports regional and provincial economic development and provides Alberta with some of the most advanced infrastructure in North America;
• supporting the province’s return to prosperity and creating a strong foundation for continued economic strength;
• implementing the provincial Land-use Framework, which supports regional planning for key infrastructure, such as transit; and
• advancing the province’s climate change strategy by getting cars off roads to reduce greenhouse gas emissions.

[JustAnotherGuy]

Originally Posted by ken0042

I had something in mind about how I had heard about it from an interview- then decided to google it. How about Nenshi's Facebook profile- does that work for you? Here he talks about how he finds the Herald article misleading. http://www.facebook.com/NaheedNenshi...67968763231754

His comments before the election about the SE LRT almost had me voting for him. The only thing holding me back was that I had looked Ric in the eye, told him he had my support, and shook his hand. I was actually pleased to see Nenshi win.

My bottom line is I expect my mayor to "go to bat" for the residents of Calgary, and find a way to make things happen. As mayor he has direct contact with the Premier, and the federal ministers in charge of finance and infrastructure. He may be just one of the 15 city councilors, but he is the guy in charge; and he is the guy who can make things happen.

Sure, the Feds and the Province may say they have money for one kind of project; it is up to him to show that the money is better spent elsewhere. We sure aren't going to see any initiative from Stelmach, and once you get onto the Federal level we are no longer the largest voice. (Nevermind the fact that the Conservatives know they are safe in Calgary without having to allocate any extra funds here.)

Thanks.

I am not picking sides. I am trying to establish what Nenshi said about the SE Transit system as part of his election platform.

Did he say he would get the SE LRT going or did he say he will get a Transit solution in the SE?

[ken0042]

What I recall from him saying was that short term solutions (like BRT) would not work in the SE, and if elected he would do everything he could to get the SE LRT started as soon as possible.

What he mentions on Facebook is similar to what he said before; build it to Riverbend or Douglas Glen. Neither is walking distance for me- but my thought is to get the hard infrastructure done as soon as possible. We have all seen the massive engineering going into the West LRT- get that stuff closer to the core done; the deep SE has right of ways ready to go.

Edit- did some more reading and found this:

And it is time to plan. Calgary’s transit plan is ad hoc and not aligned with the growth of the city – Council sneezes and the entire plan changes. We need a Calgary Transit City plan that includes:

•Priorities after the SE LRT and the Stephen Avenue Tunnel, including a North-Central line that actually goes where people live

[JustAnotherGuy]

Originally Posted by ken0042

What I recall from him saying was that short term solutions (like BRT) would not work in the SE, and if elected he would do everything he could to get the SE LRT started as soon as possible.

What he mentions on Facebook is similar to what he said before; build it to Riverbend or Douglas Glen. Neither is walking distance for me- but my thought is to get the hard infrastructure done as soon as possible. We have all seen the massive engineering going into the West LRT- get that stuff closer to the core done; the deep SE has right of ways ready to go.

Thanks again. I didn't hit the read more thing so I didn't read the full message at first. It sounds like he is thinking it through the right way. I hope the proper solution does happen.

[frinkprof]

Originally Posted by ken0042

What I recall from him saying was that short term solutions (like BRT) would not work in the SE, and if elected he would do everything he could to get the SE LRT started as soon as possible.

What he mentions on Facebook is similar to what he said before; build it to Riverbend or Douglas Glen. Neither is walking distance for me- but my thought is to get the hard infrastructure done as soon as possible. We have all seen the massive engineering going into the West LRT- get that stuff closer to the core done; the deep SE has right of ways ready to go.

He isn't saying that this is his preferred solution (if he really has a concrete one for actually building the SE line at this point). He is saying that this is one of the options that administration has put forth in their report, which will be before council tomorrow.

Originally Posted by ken0042

Edit- did some more reading and found this:

And it is time to plan. Calgary’s transit plan is ad hoc and not aligned with the growth of the city – Council sneezes and the entire plan changes. We need a Calgary Transit City plan that includes:

•Priorities after the SE LRT and the Stephen Avenue Tunnel, including a North-Central line that actually goes where people live

The key word here being plan. He isn't promising to build any of it right of way, just that there should be a better and more consistent long-term plan than there is currently.

[Barnes]

The guy was sworn in 12 days ago and there hasn't even been a council meeting yet. Can we let him get through his first day before claiming he has broken campaign promises?

[Jimmy Stang]

Originally Posted by Barnes

The guy was sworn in 12 days ago and there hasn't even been a council meeting yet. Can we let him get through his first day before claiming he has broken campaign promises?

OK, but there better be LRT in McKenzie Town tomorrow. (Shakes fist).

[shermanator]

Looks like council has receive an extension on the province's deadline, and are going to decide in January.

"The first three years of the green trip funding are not enough to build anything on the southeast LRT. We've got to be clear about this," the mayor told reporters.

"So the real question we have now is do we spend some of that money on stuff that will mean immediate improvements to Calgary Transit across the city including in the southeast, or do we park the money and wait for the rest of the money so we can put a shovel in the ground for the southeast LRT."

Link:
http://www.calgaryherald.com/news/De...#ixzz14jeo6YhO

[SebC]

"I suspect that it's not quite as black and white as that, but I suspect we'll have discussions with the minister of transportation to better understand the flexibility we've got here."

Readings between the lines here, but sounds to me like he's looking for a way to make the LRT work.

[Rathji]

The SE LRT can't start until the West leg is pretty much done, especially as if mentioned in this thread the same contractor and machinery will be used for both legs. So unless I am missing something, any funds spent on anything but the planning and arranging purchasing of land would be kind of a waste since whatever it would produce would very likely sit there unused.

Using this logic, it makes sense not to be dumping hundreds of millions of dollars into the SE LRT right now, but if they stall on the planning and other things that do make sense, I am going to be pretty choked.

This city needs the SE LRT as fast as possible, while still maintaining the financial viability of the city. Anything less than that is a failure in my eyes.

[ken0042]

Originally Posted by Rathji

The SE LRT can't start until the West leg is pretty much done, especially as if mentioned in this thread the same contractor and machinery will be used for both legs.

I think it could be started now. Keep in mind there are a lot of steps needed before a shovel hits the ground. I can't see the planning, bidding, and awarding of the contract taking less than a year. At that point (January 2012) the guys building the West leg will be on different kinds of construction. The overhead trusses and tunnels will all be dug; and they will be laying track, running cable, and installing cool LED lights at the stations.

[Mazrim]

Originally Posted by Rathji

The SE LRT can't start until the West leg is pretty much done, especially as if mentioned in this thread the same contractor and machinery will be used for both legs.

The same contractor would only be used if they sucessfully won the bid for the project, and there's no guarantee that would happen. Single sourcing a project as large as an LRT line would never happen.

[Rathji]

Originally Posted by ken0042

I think it could be started now. Keep in mind there are a lot of steps needed before a shovel hits the ground. I can't see the planning, bidding, and awarding of the contract taking less than a year. At that point (January 2012) the guys building the West leg will be on different kinds of construction. The overhead trusses and tunnels will all be dug; and they will be laying track, running cable, and installing cool LED lights at the stations.

That is a good point. If they can make it work like than then good. I just think there are other factors rather than just plopping down money for the LRT.

Originally Posted by Mazrim

The same contractor would only be used if they sucessfully won the bid for the project, and there's no guarantee that would happen. Single sourcing a project as large as an LRT line would never happen.

Well that is obvious.

I think that if the current contractor is willing to give a discount since they would not need to transport equipment, it is not a reaching conclusion to assume that they would be able to provide the most competitive pricing.

The point is, sure lots could get done but if the money/contractors time/planning time will have those funds expended for something that isn't useful it would make more sense to wait a while. For example, and this is kind of simplified, you wouldn't want to buy land, build station, lay track and run out of money and only be able to have stations reach from the Eastern edge of 10th Ave to Lynnwood or Ogden and then be waiting on money for stations and tunneling in downtown and south of Glenmore.

Something else, I just thought of: The whole 24th St/Ogden Rd/Glenmore interchange that is in planning would need to be pretty much finished (or at least started) to incorporate the crossing at Glenmore for the LRT. No idea on the time table for that, if it has even gone past the planning stages.

The LRT should be a one shot deal, unless the current economic client means that we can get it built cheap now, using some alternate source of funding rather than Greentrip (P3 etc)

[Mazrim]

Originally Posted by Rathji

I think that if the current contractor is willing to give a discount since they would not need to transport equipment, it is not a reaching conclusion to assume that they would be able to provide the most competitive pricing.

If that were true then a different contractor would be working on the SE Ring Road right now.

Also, something to consider...other bidders may bid much lower on other items than mobilization and in the end have a lower cost. Estimates on Earthworks can vary enough for example to cause big swings in contract prices. Finally, the other contractors bidding can assume that the one contractor will be discounting mobilization, and also discount it at a loss on that item to ensure they get the job.

[You Need a Thneed]

It should be mentioned that even if the green trip money was used for the SELRT, the nature of the funding would mean that shovels wouldn't go into the ground probably until 2015, at least, likely 2017 or so.

Nenshi's first priorities for being mayor included securing funding for the SELRT, not building it. Like others have said, other money might come available to build the line before Green Trip money could build the line.

Frankly, I don't think it is worth spending all of the green trip money to build a halfassed SE line. Wait until funding is in place to do both the downtown part, and get the line to MacKenzie Towne. That will likely require a P3. For my part, just make one giant p3 to build a northpointe to Mackenzie Towne line