2010/2011 Toronto Raptors thread

[Gozer]

I remember thinking both O'Neal trades were bad value.

[flames_1987]

Originally Posted by Gozer

I remember thinking both O'Neal trades were bad value.

The Shaq trade was done by Steve Kerr

[flames_1987]

Originally Posted by moon

No need for me to tell you when Bill Simmons did a masterful job himself in his book.

1. Trade away the 7th pick (could have been Deng or Iguodala) for a future pick and cash and then paid more for Quentin Richardson than what it would have cost for the player they picked. One year later traded Richardson and Nate Robinson for Kurt Thomas. Two years later traded Thomas and 2 first rounders to Seattle. So they could have had either Deng or Iguodala and instead ended up giving up 3 extra first rounders and spending more money than it would have cost to sign the pick.

2. Terrible offer to Joe Johnson which basically pushed him to Atlanta, despite the fact he was the perfect 2 guard for the team and signed Diaw instead.

3. Traded the 06 1st round pick to (Rondo) to Boston for a 2007 1st and money. Signed Marcus Banks for $24 million.

4. Signed Diaw to a 5 year $45 million deal that meant Diaw/Banks were making as much as it would have cost to keep Joe Johnson.

5. Finally, as if wasting the all the other 1st rounders he had he took the 2007 pick that he got for the Rondo pick and sold it to Portland even though he could have taken Rudy Fernandez (or any other Euro) who would have cost him nothing in terms of cap space.

In summary they went from Deng/Iguodala to a possible Rondo pick to a possible Fernandez pick and got absolutely nothing for it. In fact they ended up dealing 2 other picks as well with Kurt Thomas. They ended up getting rid of Joe Johnson because of money reason and spending just as much money on Boris Diaw and Marcus Banks.

Not having Deng/Iguodala and not having Joe Johnson on the team certainly killed any chance that the Suns had at winning and both situations were not due to luxury tax cheapness from the owner as the subsequent deals from Coangelo cost the team as much or more money.

I stand corrected then, and can eat crow for that. Did not realize how many little deals added up, and took away from what could've been a team with multiple championships. The Joe Johnson one definitely hurt the most.

[moon]

Originally Posted by flames_1987

I stand corrected then, and can eat crow for that. Did not realize how many little deals added up, and took away from what could've been a team with multiple championships. The Joe Johnson one definitely hurt the most.

I honestly thought he was a good GM until I read the Bill Simmons book as well.

Now I don't think he is as awful as I may have made him out to be earlier but he really is living off Nash/Dantoni and hasn't shown a lot outside of letting those two run, run and run.

[bluejays]

The TO excuse is weak. If the team was any good and the franchise showed any signs of moving forward guys would come here.

I agree there, just like the VC days where guys were dying to come here to play with him, but it's almost like a chicken vs. the egg argument. How do you build that winning team?

He has consistently built a butter soft team with streaky jumps shooters that was bound to fail.

I'm not sure it was bound to fail. It had only been tried essentially once before in Phoenix and it's hard to say something like that would never work if it was only tried once (or a handful of times).

Which moves did he make to get a guy to compliment Bosh?

3 larger ones in particular: O'Neal, Marion and Turkoglu. Most (unscientifically) actually thought the first two would work out, but more than a few had doubts about the Turk signing. They were good decisions at the time that had bad consequences.

I guess he didn't lose badly in any deal but he didn't make any good deals either. He has failed to draft anyone of consequence. FA signing have been bad to awful. The team has got worse since he has been here.

Draft wise, I have to disagree with you. When you look at the draft results year after year he was here, his players are at least playing regularly (though admittedly on a shallow roster). I wasn't a fan of his drafting as the Raps GM, but then I took a look at who they drafted at their position each year, and the players who were taken after, and for the most part, Colangelo got the top 3 or so BPA at that point in the draft or thereafter (meaning given where he was drafting, there weren't many players taken after who were any better than the one he took).

As far as there being nobody better, what has Coangelo done to prove he is any good? He got an executive of the year award he didn't deserve because Nash played out of his mind and then proceeded to wreck any chance the Suns had a a championship with dumb, dumb moves.

I am not going to say that anyone would be better than Coangelo, because Isiah and Babcock are still out there, but there aren't many that could do a worse job at building a team than he has.

Hey, results are results, and the Raps and Colangelo have failed, but again, the guy never sits idle and to me, if the guy isn't losing out in any trades, and he's not trigger shy, regardless of the mediocrity, he's still worthwhile to keep around. He's really been dealt a bad hand though with the way things have worked out, most of which nobody could have predicted.

[Gozer]

O'Neal = jermaine

[killer_carlson]

bump

this team is SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO bad.

I don't even know what they should do. Their best offensive player is a 7 footer who has no interest in learning how to rebound. It's terrible.

It pains me to watch these games. Smaller, lesser athletic player after player is pushing Bargiani out of the way. He has the height, he has the athletic tools, but zero interest.

They should set him down in front of a tv and make him watch that Pens/Islanders game, or clips of wendall clark to learn what it's like to play with some emotion.

[howard_the_duck]

The worst thing about it is that there is not a draft pick in the world that will help them in the next 1-3 years...unless they find a Lebron James 2.0.

What we see this season is likely not going to change in the immediate future...which is too bad because the team could find themselves losing a lot of fan support, even more than they've lost already. Pretty scary time to be a Raptors fan

[Wise Gamble]

I really feel bad for Jay Triano.

[octothorp]

Yup, it's pretty bad. Bargnani has made zero progress defensively from the beginning of the season. It's as though he intentionally avoids looking around so that he has an excuse for why he doesn't help defend. I end up focusing on him just about every defensive position, and it seems about half the time he does the right thing, but then you watch even average defenders and they're making the right plays about 80% of the time.

One of the most shocking things is the disappearance of the three-point shooting. They went from one of the best to one of the worst in just a couple years. Can't blame Bargnani for this, it's good that he's attempting less threes. Moreso just the team makeup. Especially during the stretch where Kleiza, Barbosa, and usually one of Calderon or Bayless was out, they were getting only about five attempts per game. While teams that rely heavily on three-point shooting usually fail in the playoffs when their shooters go cold, it at least allows you to keep a defense honest. The Raptors have become a long-two shooting team, which is probably the worst possible offensive strategy.

As far as what the Raptors need to do moving forward, they need to try to pick up another first rounder, hope that they can get Irving with their first pick, then a decent athletic SF (Tobias Harris would be my choice of the mid-first SFs, if he declares for this year), and finally a perimeter defensive stopper who roleplayer who can also be a high-percentage long-shooter (a guy like Justin Holiday fits the bill).

DeRozan's development has been pretty solid, and Amir is learning to play within his abilities. And I'm really impressed with Davis; doesn't have the body to compete with some of the bigger PFs, but his court division on defense is suburb. Weems can be moved ASAP, along with pretty much everyone else except Bayless. Calderon has actually had a solid season and I like him a lot, but if they can move him and get decent value back, it's a move they need to make. I'd also be in favour of trading Bargnani, but honestly it's not going to happen this year with his BYC status.

It hurts to think of it, but probably the best scenario is that the lockout claims a full year and the NBA adopts an approach for the 2012 draft that will allow them to grab another top 5 pick, while maintaining the status of their young contracts, and shaving another year off the life of some of the older teams in the conference.

[Wise Gamble]

It doesn't really matter anyways because who wants to play in Toronto? DeRozan will eventually leave and any other "superstar" they draft will end up leaving in 3 years. Bargnani gets manhandled every time on defense. For someone his size he's way too weak. Ed Davis has been a great suprise, but he'll be gone anytime too. This team will never be good...which pains me to say.

[moon]

Originally Posted by Wise Gamble

It doesn't really matter anyways because who wants to play in Toronto? DeRozan will eventually leave and any other "superstar" they draft will end up leaving in 3 years. Bargnani gets manhandled every time on defense. For someone his size he's way too weak. Ed Davis has been a great suprise, but he'll be gone anytime too. This team will never be good...which pains me to say.

Who wants to play in Sacremento or Minnesota or Milwaukee or Cleveland or New Jersey or San Antonio or Utah or Charlotte?

There are a ton of places less desirable than TO and when the teams in the city have been good there has been 0 issue attracting American FA's to the city.

The nobody wants to come to TO is BS, nobody wants to come to the Raptors because the team is garbage and the guy running the show is an idiot.

Plus Derozan leaving isn't a bad thing he is a dime a dozen player who can't defend and gets points on this team because someone has to. On a play-off team he is lucky to be in the 10 man rotation.

[I wanna be like Miikka]

Raptors need a couple years of top 5 picks to go along with Davis and then they'll be a good team.

I went to the Celtics-Heat game today, was a lot of fun to watch the talent on both those teams. Though at the end of the day I hope the Lakers beat either one of them in the final!

[killer_carlson]

the first thing the Raptors need in my opinion, is a big, mean 7 footer who is only out there to play defence. That will move Bargngarbage back to the 4 spot but still keeping him as the first choice offensive big man (and legitimately the guy can score the ball).

[secol]

if only we kept roy hibbert

[Wise Gamble]

Originally Posted by moon

Who wants to play in Sacremento or Minnesota or Milwaukee or Cleveland or New Jersey or San Antonio or Utah or Charlotte?

There are a ton of places less desirable than TO and when the teams in the city have been good there has been 0 issue attracting American FA's to the city.

The nobody wants to come to TO is BS, nobody wants to come to the Raptors because the team is garbage and the guy running the show is an idiot.

Plus Derozan leaving isn't a bad thing he is a dime a dozen player who can't defend and gets points on this team because someone has to. On a play-off team he is lucky to be in the 10 man rotation.

All of the places you mentioned are better than Toronto....since it's in Canada. Also, what's so bad about San Antonio?? Championship calibre team in the big state of Texas.

[Wise Gamble]

Originally Posted by killer_carlson

the first thing the Raptors need in my opinion, is a big, mean 7 footer who is only out there to play defence. That will move Bargngarbage back to the 4 spot but still keeping him as the first choice offensive big man (and legitimately the guy can score the ball).

Yeah when he's not shooting 29% most games..

[secol]

Originally Posted by Wise Gamble

Yeah when he's not shooting 29% most games..

6 out of 49 games so far? for how he plays on offense 44.7% is pretty decent (mid range, outside shots)

[moon]

Originally Posted by Wise Gamble

All of the places you mentioned are better than Toronto....since it's in Canada. Also, what's so bad about San Antonio?? Championship calibre team in the big state of Texas.

I am talking about in terms of places to live for young African Americans not in terms of which teams are great.

San Antonio is a good example not a great place to live in many young mens eyes, but because the organization is great people will go there.

Toronto the city isn't holding the team back the organization and the Raptors team is stopping guys from wanting to be there.

[Gozer]

Evolving from the most overrated GM in sports to one of the worst....