House passes Senate health care bill

[Locke]

Originally Posted by photon

Yeah I was watching a video of the "debate" and someone yelled "baby killer" while a democrat was up speaking... an anti-abortion democrat non-the-less.

Or Republicans cheering on protesters disrupting the debate.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...T2010032103510
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/35965961.../?ocid=twitter

The crazy fringe elements have completely infiltrated the process, they've all jumped the shark.

Sounds like first rate entertainment to me.

[valo403]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

Isn't MAryland one of the poorer areas in terms of income. If anything its going to drive costs up if they have to subsidize people to get onto health care. And its going to piss people off that now need to buy it and that comes out of their budget.

Maryland is one of the richest states in the US in terms of income

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by Flame Of Liberty

Yeah. It's one thing when a radio guy says something stupid and when elected US Rep says and DOES something stupid...

I pretty much take whatever Limbaugh says with a great big bag of prescription pills.

[photon]

Originally Posted by Locke

Sounds like first rate entertainment to me.

Lol so true.

Before you used to take to the street to protest the Vietnam war or something.

Now you take to the streets to protest health care!

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by valo403

Maryland is one of the richest states in the US in terms of income

I had read somewhere that it wasn't thanks for the correction.

If anything it will piss the people of Maryland off when their taxes increase.

There's always a cost, just because its under the surface doesn't mean that its not there.

[Bend it like Bourgeois]

Originally Posted by photon

Yeah I was watching a video of the "debate" and someone yelled "baby killer" while a democrat was up speaking... an anti-abortion democrat non-the-less.

Or Republicans cheering on protesters disrupting the debate.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...T2010032103510
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/35965961.../?ocid=twitter

The crazy fringe elements have completely infiltrated the process, they've all jumped the shark.

Imagine if someone tried to have a serious debate about health care in Canada. We'd have ragin' grannies storming legislatures

When the dust on all this settles, I wonder if Canada will become more open to change re: health care, or even less.

[valo403]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

I had read somewhere that it wasn't thanks for the correction.

If anything it will piss the people of Maryland off when their taxes increase.

There's always a cost, just because its under the surface doesn't mean that its not there.

The people in Maryland are among the most likely to be hit by the increase to the upper income brackets, but they are also largely tied to politics (at least in the counties bordering DC) so they're probably pissed/over-joyed anytime a bill is passed.

[ah123]

Originally Posted by flames_1987

Rush Limbaugh saying what happened yesterday was worse then 9/11.

I can't even muster up a response

I never understood why (political) talk radio takes such harsh stances, till I read this...

When Rush Limbaugh said that he wanted Obama to fail, he was intelligently explaining his own interests. What he omitted to say -- but what is equally true -- is that he also wants Republicans to fail.
If Republicans succeed -- if they govern successfully in office and negotiate attractive compromises out of office -- Rush's listeners get less angry. And if they are less angry, they listen to the radio less and hear fewer ads for Sleep Number beds.

http://www.cnn.com/2010/OPINION/03/2...ex.html?hpt=T2

[Iowa_Flames_Fan]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

I had read somewhere that it wasn't thanks for the correction.

If anything it will piss the people of Maryland off when their taxes increase.

There's always a cost, just because its under the surface doesn't mean that its not there.

It's no secret that I don't love this bill--but as Obama would say, "let's be clear."

There is no specific tax increase tied to this bill. People keep saying that this bill raises taxes, and it just isn't true.

People currently uninsured will have to buy health insurance, but that isn't quite the same thing. People who are poor will be eligible for a subsidized program that offers better care than they can now receive at a lower cost.

The only people who don't benefit are middle-class people who don't have health insurance because they have some blinkered notion that they don't need it. Well, them and the government, which is footing a large portion of the bill here.

The big problem here is that it does nothing to curtail the health-care-industry's inflationary billing practices, and nothing to curtail rising health care costs. But again--let's be clear. This bill doesn't solve that problem, but it also didn't produce it. If anything, the problem would have been worse if the government had done nothing.

And--bizarrely--that was the Republicans' stance all along: don't do this--do nothing instead. I think history will show that they squandered a huge opportunity to develop a positive vision for governance in the U.S. by hitching their wagon to the status quo, which everyone agrees is broken.

I'm guessing we see a significant bump in the polls for Obama after the dust settles, but only time will tell.

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by Iowa_Flames_Fan

It's no secret that I don't love this bill--but as Obama would say, "let's be clear."

There is no specific tax increase tied to this bill. People keep saying that this bill raises taxes, and it just isn't true.

People currently uninsured will have to buy health insurance, but that isn't quite the same thing. People who are poor will be eligible for a subsidized program that offers better care than they can now receive at a lower cost.

The only people who don't benefit are middle-class people who don't have health insurance because they have some blinkered notion that they don't need it. Well, them and the government, which is footing a large portion of the bill here.

The big problem here is that it does nothing to curtail the health-care-industry's inflationary billing practices, and nothing to curtail rising health care costs. But again--let's be clear. This bill doesn't solve that problem, but it also didn't produce it. If anything, the problem would have been worse if the government had done nothing.

And--bizarrely--that was the Republicans' stance all along: don't do this--do nothing instead. I think history will show that they squandered a huge opportunity to develop a positive vision for governance in the U.S. by hitching their wagon to the status quo, which everyone agrees is broken.

I'm guessing we see a significant bump in the polls for Obama after the dust settles, but only time will tell.

I'm neither for or against this bill, I don't know enough about the rammifications of it.

but when you suddenly start talking about subsidizing people for insurance costs then that money has to come from somewhere. Either they're going to have to cut from somewhere else (Defense, but its not bloodly likely to happen in the dollars that they need) or a tax increase will occur at some point, and I'm backing on that.

I think they have handed the Republican party some really damning campaign material, especially after the first person decides they'd rather go to prison then buy insurance. Or the first dirt farmer gets his fine in the mail.

I don't know if I agree with the significant increase in the polls for Obama. There will be some people that like it, some that think its an ineffective and half a$$ed policy and those that outright hate it.

I completely agree that the system in the states isn't great and needs to be overhauled. But this is a monitary bill more then anything else, it doesn't really address quality of care issues.

[Shazam]

Originally Posted by Iowa_Flames_Fan

Property taxes in the U.S. are outrageous, though. They wanted 5000 dollars a year for a 200,000 dollar house in suburban Philly.

Massive property tax is typical for the USA. This is how states make their money. States have much more responsibility for, um, stuff than provinces do, and they don't have things like transfer agreements.

Hell, I remember when I was in Pittsburgh, and the tour guide said that she pays only 11K in property tax a year on her house.

[Iowa_Flames_Fan]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

I'm neither for or against this bill, I don't know enough about the rammifications of it.

but when you suddenly start talking about subsidizing people for insurance costs then that money has to come from somewhere. Either they're going to have to cut from somewhere else (Defense, but its not bloodly likely to happen in the dollars that they need) or a tax increase will occur at some point, and I'm backing on that.

I think they have handed the Republican party some really damning campaign material, especially after the first person decides they'd rather go to prison then buy insurance. Or the first dirt farmer gets his fine in the mail.

I don't know if I agree with the significant increase in the polls for Obama. There will be some people that like it, some that think its an ineffective and half a$$ed policy and those that outright hate it.

I completely agree that the system in the states isn't great and needs to be overhauled. But this is a monitary bill more then anything else, it doesn't really address quality of care issues.

If you think pushing this bill through was tough for Obama, wait until you see him propose an increase in taxes. It just isn't going to happen.

The Republicans backed the wrong horse here. If they had said "this is a horrible idea, and we have a better one," they would have made some hay with this issue. They didn't. They said "this is a horrible idea and we prefer the status quo, which nobody likes."

Now they get to run on the platform of a political battle that they lost where no-one was on their side anyway. Not a recipe for success--just ask the Democrats in 2004.

[doglover]

hmm a government mandate to buy insurance from a private company...seems constitutional to me

[Locke]

Originally Posted by doglover

hmm a government mandate to buy insurance from a private company...seems constitutional to me

Well, they've done it for insurance before. We're legally required to buy insurance for our cars, why not health?

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by Iowa_Flames_Fan

If you think pushing this bill through was tough for Obama, wait until you see him propose an increase in taxes. It just isn't going to happen.

The Republicans backed the wrong horse here. If they had said "this is a horrible idea, and we have a better one," they would have made some hay with this issue. They didn't. They said "this is a horrible idea and we prefer the status quo, which nobody likes."

Now they get to run on the platform of a political battle that they lost where no-one was on their side anyway. Not a recipe for success--just ask the Democrats in 2004.

Well they're going to have to find that money somewhere, I doubt that American's are going to want to see an ever bigger increase in their debt.

I wish that the republican's had a better idea, because as I've said, I just don't see this idea as terrific.

[valo403]

Originally Posted by doglover

hmm a government mandate to buy insurance from a private company...seems constitutional to me

You need to read the constiution again

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by Locke

Well, they've done it for insurance before. We're legally required to buy insurance for our cars, why not health?

But I don't think that the government is buying insurance from the private sector and then selling it to people.

Either the government has to start up a medical insurance company thats not in direct competition with the private insurance companies. Or they have to regulate insurance prices across the board or you get into anti-trust.


Either way, your dealing with an incredibly powerful corporate sector thats not really afraid of taking on the government.

[valo403]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

But I don't think that the government is buying insurance from the private sector and then selling it to people.

Either the government has to start up a medical insurance company thats not in direct competition with the private insurance companies. Or they have to regulate insurance prices across the board or you get into anti-trust.


Either way, your dealing with an incredibly powerful corporate sector thats not really afraid of taking on the government.

The government can compete with private companies, it happens all the time. Same goes for across the board regulation.

[doglover]

Originally Posted by Locke

Well, they've done it for insurance before. We're legally required to buy insurance for our cars, why not health?

the thing is though owning and buying a car is optional, a mandate to buy healthcare is not

[doglover]

Originally Posted by valo403

You need to read the constiution again

care to tell me where it says the government can run healthcare?
the constitution isn't black and white- if it doesn't specifically state that healthcare can be run by the government than it can't. Also, you can't interpret clauses in the constitution to make it seem universal health care is constitutional. It's not written a foreign language so it shouldn't be interpreted. The constitution limits power it does not extend it.