Liberals catch up to Harper in the polls.

[Rerun]

Originally Posted by Iowa_Flames_Fan

Here's the second funniest part of your post:

MP Salary: 155,400.
Full Professor at Harvard: varies, but well in excess of 250,000 USD. Plus consulting income, income from books and lecture tours--probably well in excess of 300,000 USD a year.

Those must have been some nice plums that the "Liberal Moneymen" offered him to make up for what amounts to more than a $150,000 pay cut for Ignatieff.

But the funniest part is this: Ignatieff actually came back to Canada before he went into politics. In 2005 he accepted a job at the U of T, and at a Toronto policy center. He became an MP in 2006. Now, it's pretty clear that running for office was on his radar. It's equally clear that he had a back-up plan in place for staying in Toronto should politics not work out.

But please, carry on with the nativist nonsense. Because the thing is, even if your allegations were in line with the facts, they still wouldn't add up to a good reason not to vote for him. It just seems a little... desperate to me. Like you know you haven't got a leg to stand on, so you lean on the nearest emotional hot button and hope it never stops working.

There are a lot of things I don't love about Ignatieff. He's professorial, he's a bit inexperienced politically--which is a big disadvantage when your opponent is a seasoned operator like Harper--and he doesn't seem to have a very effective communications strategy.

But criticizing him because he worked at Harvard for a while? I'm sorry--but that's just dumb.

hmmmm.... University teacher.... or Prime Minister of Canada? Which should I chose? Grandpa was a Russian Duke.... can't be that anymore... I guess the next best thing is running a whole country... even if it is Canada.

How should I do it? Come back to Canada and go straight into politics?.... nope that wouldn't look too good (been away for 30 years)... maybe I should get a job there first and then go into politics... besides the Liberal party has a leader right now and I can't exactly go in there and ask him to leave because I want his job. Yep... thats the plan... go to Canada, get a job there for the first time in 30 years, work there for a few months, and THEN take over the leadership of the Liberal party and wait for the unwashed, uneducated masses to elect me to my rightful place... Prime Minister!

.... after all, being Prime Minister is WAY BETTER than being some obsolete Russian duke. Prime Minister's have power! They get to travel all over the place and hob nob with Presidents and Kings and Queens, they get to have their own army and airforce and navy.

Grandpa Duke Ignatieff would have been proud of me. Poor Russian rich kid makes good!

[FlamesAddiction]

Originally Posted by Rerun

Grandpa Duke Ignatieff would have been proud of me. Poor Russian rich kid makes good!

In Canada, it would actually be breaking down a barrier for a non anglo or franco person to become leader of the country. Canada is extremely ethnocentric in this regard. It seems that if you don't come from English/Scottish/Irish or French stock, then you are at a disadvantage in politics. Heck, even France elected a Hungarian as president.

[Iowa_Flames_Fan]

Originally Posted by Rerun

hmmmm.... University teacher.... or Prime Minister of Canada? Which should I chose? Grandpa was a Russian Duke.... can't be that anymore... I guess the next best thing is running a whole country... even if it is Canada.

Too funny. First you claimed it was about money--now you're claiming it's about a desire for power. So your argument is... he went into politics because he secretly wants to be Prime Minister.

Nefarious. People running for office wanting to be elected. What's next? People responding to want ads because they want a job?

[zuluking]

Originally Posted by Iowa_Flames_Fan

Too funny. First you claimed it was about money--now you're claiming it's about a desire for power. So your argument is... he went into politics because he secretly wants to be Prime Minister.

Nefarious. People running for office wanting to be elected. What's next? People responding to want ads because they want a job?

IFF, you stated he came back to Canada before politics. I posted that he came back for politics period and that the U of T gig was merely a handy day job to launch his leadership bid from - Harvard being inconveniently in the U.S.

I would suggest that the U of T gig would absolutely NEVER enter his mind as an equivalent post as the one he left in Harvard. Meaning he came back for the Liberal leadership and ultimately PM. And the only reason was because some Liberal guys sold him on being the shoe-in saviour.

You said it yourself: Harvard egghead - $250K; backbench MP - $150K. He didn't come back to be an MP for noble service of his country. You want to talk about laughable!

[Rerun]

Originally Posted by Iowa_Flames_Fan

Too funny. First you claimed it was about money--now you're claiming it's about a desire for power. So your argument is... he went into politics because he secretly wants to be Prime Minister.

Nefarious. People running for office wanting to be elected. What's next? People responding to want ads because they want a job?

Where did I say Ignatieff went into Canadian politics for the money? Its always been about the POWER. It was the Liberal moneymen who talked him into doing it but it wasn't about the money (although I bet the Liberal party did sweeten the pot a bit to help him decide)... he came here with one intention only. Become the leader of the Liberal party and by right of succession, the Prime Minister of Canada (when Iggy came back to Canada, the Liberals were the governing party).... and there was no secret about it. Everyone knew what his plans were. It was the worse kept secret in the history of politics.

[Iowa_Flames_Fan]

Originally Posted by zuluking

IFF, you stated he came back to Canada before politics. I posted that he came back for politics period and that the U of T gig was merely a handy day job to launch his leadership bid from - Harvard being inconveniently in the U.S.

I would suggest that the U of T gig would absolutely NEVER enter his mind as an equivalent post as the one he left in Harvard. Meaning he came back for the Liberal leadership and ultimately PM. And the only reason was because some Liberal guys sold him on being the shoe-in saviour.

You said it yourself: Harvard egghead - $250K; backbench MP - $150K. He didn't come back to be an MP for noble service of his country. You want to talk about laughable!

You're misunderstanding me. I actually didn't say that he didn't come back to Canada for politics--just that U of T is a pretty good backup plan if it doesn't work out. You know, U of T is a very good school--you don't just waltz in there and ask for a job, even if you are at Harvard. That just isn't how the academy works.

What I was responding to was two things: the notion that nothing ties him to Canada (as if it matters anyway) and the notion that Ignatieff is in politics for money. Face it: he could make way more money as a professor. There's no way to spin politics as a moneymaking profession for him--it's a massive paycut right now, and still a pretty sizeable one if he wins the next election.

So yeah, I agree. It's laughable. Nativism is laughable on its own--the notion that someone who leaves this country somehow gives up his identity. But the money thing was particularly good. The life of a Harvard professor is pretty darn comfortable. If Ignatieff was after money and prestige, he'd have been better off staying where he was. Going into politics was a huge risk, and in the short term means walking away from more than 150,000 dollars a year for the better part of a decade.

I'm not saying he's a hero. The fact is, pretty much everyone who succeeds in politics could be making more money somewhere else--it's kind of par for the course. The same probably applies to Harper--though he is admittedly more of a career politician.

[Iowa_Flames_Fan]

Originally Posted by Rerun

Where did I say Ignatieff went into Canadian politics for the money? Its always been about the POWER. It was the Liberal moneymen who talked him into doing it but it wasn't about the money (although I bet the Liberal party did sweeten the pot a bit to help him decide)... he came here with one intention only. Become the leader of the Liberal party and by right of succession, the Prime Minister of Canada (when Iggy came back to Canada, the Liberals were the governing party).... and there was no secret about it. Everyone knew what his plans were. It was the worse kept secret in the history of politics.

So... his nefarious plan was to go into politics and win an election.

Unbelievable. What a horrible person.

I bet when Stephen Harper ran for the leadership of his party he had no designs on the PMO.

[Slava]

This whole argument is hilarious!

Of course Ignatieff wants to be elected as PM with a majority mandate. Here's a newsflash though so does Harper. I can't believe that Harper is only running his party and coming election campaign to get a majority government. It's so obvious that the only reason he's in Ontario is to try to govern! If he weren't interested in governing he would've stayed in Alberta, so clearly his motives should be questioned.

[Rerun]

Originally Posted by Iowa_Flames_Fan

So... his nefarious plan was to go into politics and win an election.

Unbelievable. What a horrible person.

I bet when Stephen Harper ran for the leadership of his party he had no designs on the PMO.

Of course he did. But Harper has lived in Canada his whole life and has been involved in Canadian politics a long time. He just didn't show up at the door, after being away from Canada for 30 years, and then like some Johnny-come-lately ask for directions to the PMO and when can he move in.

[Rerun]

Originally Posted by Slava

This whole argument is hilarious!

Of course Ignatieff wants to be elected as PM with a majority mandate. Here's a newsflash though so does Harper. I can't believe that Harper is only running his party and coming election campaign to get a majority government. It's so obvious that the only reason he's in Ontario is to try to govern! If he weren't interested in governing he would've stayed in Alberta, so clearly his motives should be questioned.

Harper's political pedigree (according to Wikipedia)..

Harper became involved in politics as a member of his high school's Young Liberals Club.[5] He later changed his political allegiance because he disagreed with the National Energy Program (NEP) of Pierre Trudeau's Liberal government.[6] He became chief aide to Progressive Conservative MP Jim Hawkes in 1985, but later became disillusioned with both the party and the government of Brian Mulroney, especially the administration's fiscal policy[5] and its inability to fully revoke the NEP until 1986. He left the PC Party that same year.[7]
He was then recommended by the University of Calgary's economist Bob Mansell to Preston Manning, the founder and leader of the Reform Party of Canada. Manning invited him to participate in the party, and Harper gave a speech at Reform's 1987 founding convention in Winnipeg. He became the Reform Party's Chief Policy Officer, and he played a major role in drafting the 1988 election platform. He is credited with creating Reform's campaign slogan, "The West wants in!"[8]
Harper ran for the Canadian House of Commons in the 1988 federal election, appearing on the ballot as Steve Harper in Calgary West. He lost by a wide margin to Hawkes, his former employer. The Reform Party did not win any seats in this election, although party candidate Deborah Grey was elected as the party's first MP in a by-election shortly thereafter. Harper became Grey's executive assistant, and was her chief adviser and speechwriter until 1993.[9] He remained prominent in the Reform Party's national organization in his role as policy chief, encouraging the party to expand beyond its Western base and arguing that strictly regional parties were at risk of being taken over by radical elements.[10] He delivered a speech at the Reform Party's 1991 national convention, in which he condemned extremist views.[11]
Harper's relationship with Manning became strained in 1992, due to conflicting strategies over the Charlottetown Accord. Harper opposed the Accord on principle for ideological reasons, while Manning was initially more open to compromise. Harper also criticized Manning's decision to hire Rick Anderson as an adviser, believing that Anderson was not sufficiently committed to the Reform Party's principles.[12] He resigned as policy chief in October 1992.
Harper stood for office again in the 1993 federal election, and defeated Jim Hawkes amid a significant Reform breakthrough in Western Canada.

[Iowa_Flames_Fan]

Originally Posted by Rerun

Of course he did. But Harper has lived in Canada his whole life and has been involved in Canadian politics a long time. He just didn't show up at the door, after being away from Canada for 30 years, and then like some Johnny-come-lately ask for directions to the PMO and when can he move in.

I see. In other words, you admit that Ignatieff is more qualified than Harper--you're just saying that he had the wrong type of mailing address.

Honestly, you act like Boston is Abu Dhabhi. You should get out and visit it sometime. It's actually a really nice city--and you'll find that most people there speak English, know where Canada is, and really are a lot like us. They even refer to their money as a "dollar." Isn't that cute?

[FlamesAddiction]

Originally Posted by Rerun

Harper's political pedigree (according to Wikipedia)..

For the record, I think Harper is a very motivated, focused, and hard working politician. He really did go through all the ropes and even joined an upstart party where he probably couldn't have thought that would be the most likely route to become a PM. He is also very intelligent.... book smarts anyway. I just disagree with his perspectives... but I respect the guy totally.

I can understand how some people might think that it is pretentious for someone to walk in and automatically be in the running for PM.... but his background does offer valuable experience. It's also worth mentioning that 2005 was not the first time he was courted by the Liberals. They tried getting him a few years earlier but he decided at the time that he had too much work to finish and he was't happy with the Chretien Liberals. So I don't think it is simply opportunitism that is bringing him into federal politics in Canada as the opportunity was there before. It's just timing. Not everything is a secret conspiracy.

[Slava]

Originally Posted by Rerun

Harper's political pedigree (according to Wikipedia)..

I don't think that anyone questions his political history? (although that curiously leaves out his NCC history and their supporting him as a candidate to get to where he is today).

[RedHot25]

I just don't get this. Of all the things that Ignatieff could be criticized for, it is the fact that he lived in the US. So instead of talking about how he has the charisma, of well, not much of anything, we are talking about Russian Dukes.

Rerun, no offense, I understand/respect that its your opinion, but you come off sounding like a Conservative attack ad...

[RedHot25]

Originally Posted by nik-

What logo are we talking about here?

http://cnews.canoe.ca/CNEWS/Politics...38681-sun.html

Critics link Conservative, Olympic logos

The Conservative government is flatly denying any involvement in a new Olympic apparel logo that bears an uncanny resemblance to the party’s own moniker.

Liberal MP Hedy Fry suggested Thursday that “crass politics” was behind the striking similarity to the governing party, calling it “embarrassing” in the House of Commons.

[Rerun]

Originally Posted by RedHot25

I just don't get this. Of all the things that Ignatieff could be criticized for, it is the fact that he lived in the US. So instead of talking about how he has the charisma, of well, not much of anything, we are talking about Russian Dukes.

Rerun, no offense, I understand/respect that its your opinion, but you come off sounding like a Conservative attack ad...

I really don't care about the fact that Ignatieff lived in the USA or anywhere else for that matter. Lots of people have lived in other countries other than Canada. I myself, lived in France for 3 years when I was a child. What matters to me is the fact that he lived 30 years outside of Canada and it appears that the only reason he returned was because he figured he had a pretty good chance to become the Prime Minister. If not for that apple on the tree which was waiting to be picked, I bet you dollars to donuts that he'd still be teaching and doing whatever in Harvard or someplace else other than Canada. Forgive me, but I like my Prime Minister to be someone who loves this country so much that they couldn't possibly envision themselves leaving for 30 years and only coming back because some Liberal bagmen came down to see me and talked me into coming back to be leader of their party and eventually the Prime Minister of the whole damn country.

Yes... he is very intelligent. Yes he is ... yes he is... Ok thats it. Thats all I can think of to say in praise of Ignatieff.... at least when it comes to being my Prime Minister. And don't think I have this dislike for Iggy because he's a Liberal. I'd be just as much against him being PM if he was a Conservative. It just sticks in my craw that he leaves this great country for 30 years and when he finally does decide to move back, he only does it because he figures he's going to get to run the country.

Thats my opinion.

[Iowa_Flames_Fan]

Originally Posted by Rerun

And don't think I have this dislike for Iggy because he's a Liberal. I'd be just as much against him being PM if he was a Conservative. It just sticks in my craw that he leaves this great country for 30 years and when he finally does decide to move back, he only does it because he figures he's going to get to run the country.

That may be true. But it would be easier to believe if you didn't parrot every single Conservative Party talking point.

My guess is that if the Liberals ran someone with a similar resume to Harper's, you'd deride him as a "career politician."

[Rerun]

Nope. There are lots of things I don't like about Harper either.... but at least I believe he is in it for the good of the country... something I don't believe in Igantieff.

I also believe that Paul Martin was a better man than Brian Mulrooney. I liked Martin. Mulrooney I dislike. PET I hate. He was an arrogant sob. Joe Clarke was incompetent.

[Iowa_Flames_Fan]

Originally Posted by Rerun

Nope. There are lots of things I don't like about Harper either.... but at least I believe he is in it for the good of the country... something I don't believe in Igantieff.

I also believe that Paul Martin was a better man than Brian Mulrooney. I liked Martin. Mulrooney I dislike. PET I hate. He was an arrogant sob. Joe Clarke was incompetent.

See, I'm pretty confused by that.

Person A walks away from 150,000 dollars a year in salary to change careers and go into politics, and he's "not in it for the good of the country."

Person B spends his entire career in politics--literally from his 20s to the present, to the point that it would be fair to say that he only knows how to run for office--and he's "in it for the good of the country."

I happen to think both men are basically sincere and good people who honestly believe they have good ideas about government. But the character assassination when it comes to Ignatieff is just strange to me.

Why not just say that you don't like his ideas? To me that's way more legitimate than saying he has secret ulterior motives because he's "not one of us." Ignatieff is one of us. Moving around for work is something that Canadian professionals do all the time. If we don't trust people who pursue careers in other countries, we're eliminating some of the most talented people from the pool.

[Rerun]

Originally Posted by Iowa_Flames_Fan

See, I'm pretty confused by that.

Person A walks away from 150,000 dollars a year in salary to change careers and go into politics, and he's "not in it for the good of the country."

Person B spends his entire career in politics--literally from his 20s to the present, to the point that it would be fair to say that he only knows how to run for office--and he's "in it for the good of the country."

I happen to think both men are basically sincere and good people who honestly believe they have good ideas about government. But the character assassination when it comes to Ignatieff is just strange to me.

Why not just say that you don't like his ideas? To me that's way more legitimate than saying he has secret ulterior motives because he's "not one of us." Ignatieff is one of us. Moving around for work is something that Canadian professionals do all the time. If we don't trust people who pursue careers in other countries, we're eliminating some of the most talented people from the pool.

As I said before, I don't believe that money was the primary reason why Iggy went into politics. It was power. The power that is bestowed upon the PM.

But, as long as we are talking money, you are correct in you $155,000 salary figure.. but only in as much as that is the base salary of an MP. The PM makes $301,000 and that is the position that Ignatieff covets... not to mention the two state paid for official residences, the private limos, the personal business jets, and all the other perks that go with the office. And that doesn't even take into consideration all the $$$ Iggy will make after he leaves politics (providing he reaches the Holy Grail of the PM office).

Now I know you are going to say that Harper gets all this stuff too so whats the difference? Well, Harper went into politics for the betterment of the country. Iggy went into politics for the betterment of Iggy. You may say otherwise but I just don't believe it. All his life, Iggy has looked after #1. He's just continuing the process, but on a different road now. Canada, and the advancement and improvement of our country, has been an afterthought. Something really snappy to have on his resume now that he's getting close to retirement. Having PM on your resume really helps when you are looking for big bucks on the speaking circuit and I'm sure a few board memberships will come his way too.

Basically, I just don't believe this 11th hour conversion to "I am Canadian!"