Raptors 2009 offseason thread

[octothorp]

I really like the fact that Triano says that he'll need consistent minutes to develop. If there's one thing our young players weren't getting under Mitchell, it was consistent minutes. I agree with JohnnyFlame, everything I saw from this guy at the PAC10 got me excited, and he really seemed to develop his college game in one year. So even though he is raw, he could still be a quick study if developed correctly.

[Suave]

Raptors trying to sign Turkoglu along with Portland. Also looks like the loser would go after Ariza

League executives believe the loser in the Hedo pursuit --- Portland or Toronto -- will offer Ariza between $32 million and $40 million deal

http://twitter.com/YahooSportsNBA

Another option is David Lee

League sources indicated early Thursday that the Raptors are contemplating an offer to restricted free agent David Lee. cbssports

[JohnnyFlame]

Originally Posted by Suave

Raptors trying to sign Turkoglu along with Portland. Also looks like the loser would go after Ariza

League executives believe the loser in the Hedo pursuit --- Portland or Toronto -- will offer Ariza between $32 million and $40 million deal

http://twitter.com/YahooSportsNBA

Another option is David Lee

League sources indicated early Thursday that the Raptors are contemplating an offer to restricted free agent David Lee. cbssports

Personally I think Ariza is vastly overrated and not a good fit for the Raptors regardless. He can't create his own shot. He was getting all those free looks because of Kobe and Gasol. No thanks. Turk would be great but 10 million bucks sure means they will be limited as far as depth players go. But he handles the ball so much on offense Calderon would become more of a shooter which is a good thing. Lee to me makes no sense either unless they are trading Bosh.

[octothorp]

I've always liked Turkoglu, but the price for both him and Ariza would be sky high right now. I'd rather take a relative bargain deal on Marion; I'm assuming the choice is Marion or Ariza or Turkoglu, right? Not Marion plus one of the other two?

[bluejays]

If David Lee is there, boy do I hope the Raps jump on him. Marion is slowly nearing his downside, and I'm not sure where he fits in on the Raps. Say it's a fairly simple deal with Marion and Hump to NY for Lee. That would be a starting lineup of:

C - Lee
PF - Bosh
SF - Bargnani
G - DeRozen
PG - Calderon

Honestly, they would lack outside game, but nonetheless, it would be a fairly solid lineup and Bosh would be used more of a midrange shooter which is fine with me.

[Suave]

I think Turkoglu and Ariza are backup plans if things don't work out signing Marion; plus I'm not sold on either of them. Lee is one of my favorite players, so I would love him on the Raps, but there is no room with Bosh and Andrea (I think Andrea needs to start). Then again I can see Bosh being dealt by Christmas. So many different ways things can play out when you have a bad team.

[Ziggy Lidstrom]

Octo, I agree with your assesment of Ariza, however I do believe the other intangibles he brings (Great perimeter defender, spot up shooter, special athleticism and a ring) are reason enough to take a look especially with a team like the raps, who lack nearly all said qualities.

DAvid Lee is an intriguing option. He is a double double machine and has centre experience in the East, as fleury stated. In my mind, he would be an interesting back up plan if Bosh left.

Thus, both those options are going to command between 10 and 15 per. I like the idea of marion. I believe, with the history between the two of them, that BC places priority with Matrix, as alluded to earlier. Re: Fleury and matrix' downside... I do believe he is past thirty, but I don't believe he is on the down-side of his career. Partially due to the fact that he was never a dominant offensive lynch-pin type player, yet a great complementary player. And that is what I think he displayed as he grew increasingly more comfortable with our team and system.

I see a lot of Matrix in Ariza but I see a better spot up shooter with the latter and a better post player in the former. Pick your poison! I would go with a shorter term contract and if Matrix wants a long-term deal, you walk away and focus on Ariza with your eyes on the future, like Suave said. But unlike him, I do belive there would be minutes for all to be happy: a front court rotation of Bosh, Bargs, Evans and Lee is interesting and almost scary.

[bluejays]

If the Raptors were to somehow, SOMEHOW pry Lee away from NY, I wonder who the heck they could possibly give up. Clearly if DeRozen is a human highlight reel, NY would want him, along with the rights to Matrix. I'm not sure Colangelo would do that deal. As for Kleiza, I really hope they don't come near that guy. The Euro thing is just not up to par when it comes to toughness, and I'm really surprised Colangelo hasn't realized it yet. Unless you have star players like Parker and Ginobili in SA, or Hedo in Orlando, you can't go anywhere with these mediocre Euro's. Colangelo's building a bunch of them as your 6th men night in and night out, and they just don't have that aggressiveness championship teams need. SA is just happens to have created the perfect storm with them, but Colangelo's taking it too far for the sake of having them. Enough already. Ariza, hope they don't touch with a 10 foot poll either. IMO, and this is more of a guess I'll admit, but the second he's away from Bryant, I think the guy will be a ball hog. We already have enough mediocre talent just like him. Stay away!

[Suave]

Looks like Turks wife wears the pants in the family and he might be on his way to Toronto.

Turkoglu had agreed on a five-year, $50 million deal with the Blazers, but changed his mind and could be headed for a five-year, $56 million deal with the Raptors. Toronto would have to renounce three free agents – Shawn Marion(notes), Carlos Delfino(notes) and Anthony Parker(notes) – to create the cap space for Turkoglu.
Apparently, the Blazers are already busy exploring other free-agent options for the $9 million in salary-cap space.
A source says Turkoglu’s wife wanted badly to live in Toronto, a far more European-style city, and that’s where it appears the Turkish native is headed. The Raptors have embraced the Euro game under GM Bryan Colangelo, building a roster that includes Euro talents Jose Calderon and Andrea Bargnani.

http://ca.sports.yahoo.com/nba/news;...yhoo&type=lgns

[Machiavelli]

Hmm....thank you Mrs. Turkoglu?

[octothorp]

Originally Posted by Ziggy Lidstrom

Octo, I agree with your assesment of Ariza, however I do believe the other intangibles he brings (Great perimeter defender, spot up shooter, special athleticism and a ring) are reason enough to take a look especially with a team like the raps, who lack nearly all said qualities.

I think you probably meant JohnnyFlame's post above mine. I didn't really evaluate Ariza, but JF made some interesting points.

As to this latest development, I'm really not sure that Turkoglu is better value than Marion + Delfino for the Raptors right now (Parker, I don't think there's a place for with the raps next year anyway), and I say that as someone who's always liked him. It's nice that someone wants to sign with the Raptors, It's not like he's taking a discount to sign with the team. If we could sign him and retain Delfino I'd be interested though.

[Ziggy Lidstrom]

Well, my response to Johnny Flame still withstanding, I am now unconcerned with Ariza as he is a Rocket now. Thus, the idea of Turk or Marion.

As much as I want to say that Marion and Delfino would be good for our squad, I look to the lack of playmaking our team suffers from. Outside of Jose, there are really no playmakers. Bosh isn't a playmaker, but a shot taker and the occasional slasher. Who will get him the ball? With Marion and Delfino, I guess the two would complement eachother, but I don't think either are big time shot makers or nba caliber ballhandlers/playmakers. With Turkoglu, he reminds me a lot of Bargnani, but with better instincts and handles, but less size. I think he isn't a great defender and Marion and Delfino are.

So, who is the better fit for the team: Marion/Delfino/Parker or Turkoglu? They all bring something, but personally I go with the former option because of the less money invested, the defense that all three bring and the body count 3to1.

[bluejays]

Personally, I'm happy to see Turkoglu over Marion here. I'd take Lee over both, but still, Turkoglu's more of a tough player than Marion, and for that alone, I like Turk. I really like Parker, and if the reports are true and he's gone, it's a sad day, but it had to come some day. As for Delfino, he'd be a nice addition to the roster too, but we'll see if he can be re-signed if he's now a FA. I'm not sure how this lineup looks at the present though:

C - Bargnani
PF - Bosh
SF - Turkoglu
G - DeRozen
PG - Calderon

Seems to me, it puts quite a strain on DeRozen to get his game together in the offseason, because he's gonna be their athletic guy. I don't know how that's gonna work out.

[JohnnyFlame]

Originally Posted by fleury

Personally, I'm happy to see Turkoglu over Marion here. I'd take Lee over both, but still, Turkoglu's more of a tough player than Marion, and for that alone, I like Turk. I really like Parker, and if the reports are true and he's gone, it's a sad day, but it had to come some day. As for Delfino, he'd be a nice addition to the roster too, but we'll see if he can be re-signed if he's now a FA. I'm not sure how this lineup looks at the present though:

C - Bargnani
PF - Bosh
SF - Turkoglu
G - DeRozen
PG - Calderon

Seems to me, it puts quite a strain on DeRozen to get his game together in the offseason, because he's gonna be their athletic guy. I don't know how that's gonna work out.

I would think it would be ideal for his first year. Turk is perfect for the Raps. He can create his own shot and drives to the net. He also handles the ball and is a very good passer. Calderon becomes more of a spot up shooter. Demar can just live on the boards.

The starting five is no problem. It's who is going to come off the bench. IF there is no SnT in this deal then they have to renounce Marion, Delfino and Parker.

Will be a challenge then to fill roster spots with anything but scrubbies. Hump could though already be gone for Dooling. That would cover the backup PG. Rasho might sign for the vet minimum. Apparently Pops is training to be a SF.

Whatever it's fun to have BC wheeling and dealing and seeing a top FA come to the Raps.

[bluejays]

Originally Posted by JohnnyFlame

I would think it would be ideal for his first year. Turk is perfect for the Raps. He can create his own shot and drives to the net. He also handles the ball and is a very good passer. Calderon becomes more of a spot up shooter. Demar can just live on the boards.

The starting five is no problem. It's who is going to come off the bench. IF there is no SnT in this deal then they have to renounce Marion, Delfino and Parker.

Will be a challenge then to fill roster spots with anything but scrubbies. Hump could though already be gone for Dooling. That would cover the backup PG. Rasho might sign for the vet minimum. Apparently Pops is training to be a SF.

Whatever it's fun to have BC wheeling and dealing and seeing a top FA come to the Raps.

Basically, what I meant was the Raps will be relying on DeRozen for a lot. I like Turk's toughness above all. He's fearless when he wants to be and that's a very nice thing to have on this very week team a lot of nights. What I'm concerned about though, is A) using Bargs at the centre position, and B) Toronto's lack of scoring/rebounding. With Bosh and Calderon you know exactly what you're getting. Between them, each game you'll get 35 points, 16 rebounds, 14 assists. The problem though, what will Bargnani give you this year and how much can you rely on the guy to score when he consistenly has problems playing with toughness game in and game out...especially at centre? If Bargnani falters, the onus is on DeRozen to get points and boards. I'm probably just overreacting, but I really doubt DeRozen's going to be providing 15ppg his first year.

[Ziggy Lidstrom]

Originally Posted by JohnnyFlame

I would think it would be ideal for his first year. Turk is perfect for the Raps. He can create his own shot and drives to the net. He also handles the ball and is a very good passer. Calderon becomes more of a spot up shooter. Demar can just live on the boards.

The starting five is no problem. It's who is going to come off the bench. IF there is no SnT in this deal then they have to renounce Marion, Delfino and Parker.

Also, I too like the look of Bargs at 5 and Bosh at the 4 with evans to back up bosh primarily and sometimes bargs for a small line up. Yet, I see that we need another big that would be comfortable with the remaining minutes. I am not comfortable with O'Bryant. I say that lee would be perfect if he were content with First minutes off the bench for Bargs and Bosh and would start incase of injury. Evans is content with whatever he gets. However, if we don't get Lee it will because we get Turk and perhaps another reason. So Turk, within a starting line up of Bargs Bosh Turk DeRo Jose is void of any defensive coverage. This reason alone has to scare BC. To me it's plain, I like defensive toughness more than offensive toughness. He was fearless some nights but for how long can he be? That quality could help this team as another scoring option willing to take control but let's see results then. As to your comment about the bench, I agree but that is another reason why we should not sign turk, I like the depth better with marion, delfino, parker. Without them it gets grim: Douby, Hump, Ukic, Mensah-Bonsu, RFA Graham, O'Bryant, Banks. That is a sad bench.

^^Fleury, I don't think Turk is as tough as you're making him out to be. He recently has been recognized with his play but has done little to dispel the notions of poor defensive qualities and his recent toughness. If those are the endearing qualities and then if he has indeed signed with us, let's see how it plays out. Sure he looked fearless, but other nights he looked like janitor with a jersey. Inconsistencies aside, I don't think he's what you say.

Yeah it will be fun to see how BC dances around it all and constructs this years team.

[Saint Troy]

Nice move, Turgolu can create his own shot which the Raptors desperately need. Now move Bosh?

[Gozer]

If this team keeps Bosh, I don't like the Turkeyglue signing. I like him as a player, but this team has the same weaknesses it always has had. Lousy rebounding, poor man defenders (due to lack of athleticism or experience), and an offense built around the jumpshot.

Turkey can create off the screen-and-roll, but teams can just switch defenders and limit the penetration that Orlando had when switching wasn't an option. Howard punished switches in the paint, but with a 7' jumpshooters running off a screen by the other two 7' jumpshooters - defenders just need to switch under the screen and concede a long jumper. That's been a losing formula for this team for long enough!

[Ziggy Lidstrom]

Originally Posted by Gozer

If this team keeps Bosh, I don't like the Turkeyglue signing. I like him as a player, but this team has the same weaknesses it always has had. Lousy rebounding, poor man defenders (due to lack of athleticism or experience), and an offense built around the jumpshot.

Turkey can create off the screen-and-roll, but teams can just switch defenders and limit the penetration that Orlando had when switching wasn't an option. Howard punished switches in the paint, but with a 7' jumpshooters running off a screen by the other two 7' jumpshooters - defenders just need to switch under the screen and concede a long jumper. That's been a losing formula for this team for long enough!

I completely agree. Creating offense wasn't as big as a problem as playing adequate defense was. Turk doesn't have elite quicks or handles. I don't want to tie up that money in this guy. He reminds me of a better version of Kapono, but with more offensive acumen. I think a player like Brandon bass would be a better fit for our team. A super athletic 4 who is starting to come into his own would round out a good 4 bigman rotation.

Gozer, do you recall a discussion we had regarding the accountability of BC? This move is crucial to his future, IMO. He is on the hook for some very questionable moves. He hasn't acquired any impact players outside of parker. He drafted Bargnani because his hands were tied and had to hold out hope that he would develope any of his promise. DeRozan isn't a proven commodity and isn't a good bet to become what Marion provided, at least soon anyway.

I am nervous about giving 55 million over 5 years to a 31 year old, offensive player. I would rather have Marion for 3 years at 8-9 million.

[Gozer]

Originally Posted by Ziggy Lidstrom

Gozer, do you recall a discussion we had regarding the accountability of BC? This move is crucial to his future, IMO. He is on the hook for some very questionable moves. He hasn't acquired any impact players outside of parker. He drafted Bargnani because his hands were tied and had to hold out hope that he would develope any of his promise. DeRozan isn't a proven commodity and isn't a good bet to become what Marion provided, at least soon anyway.

I do.

I'm holding judgement on this move because I think its a prelude to Bosh moving. When that trade goes down, I'll re-evaluate the Hedo move.

If there are no other moves, my disapproval of Coangelo only intensifies.