'Second Earth' found, 20 light years away

[Thor]

Originally Posted by ken0042

I'd go. But I would need a lot of porn.

Well hows about this, with nano age we can build very large ships with reasonable cost. Soo we could have a strip club, a gaming center, hookers, blow, pubs.

That should make the 20 year journey more fun there.

[photon]

Originally Posted by FlamesAddiction

Just for discussions sake, if humans decided to try and go there to explore it (assuming there was a good chance that it was habitable), how would scientists approach this? It seems that physically going there by conventional methods might be impossible, but what about worm holes and interdimensional travel? Or space bending? Are these real theories, or are they just science fiction?

And assuming that they are real possibilities, how long would it take to develop the technology? Are we looking at centuries for a realistic time table?

Conventional means, it's tough.

The first question you have to ask is do you care how long it takes. If you are going to send robots and everything you need to build/grow people there, then it's easier since you just use the gravity in our solar system to slingshot yourself in that direction and wait a few million years.

If you do care how long it takes, say the lifespan of a human, then it gets MUCH harder. You'll have to accelerate to a significant portion of the speed of light to do it, which would require huge amounts of energy and even more reaction mass (to accelerate you have to throw something out the back, be it stuff from rockets, ion drives, nuclear explosions, whatever). Imagine having to drive around the world in a car, except you have to take all your fuel with you to start out with. Plus even though only 70 years would have passed on the ship, thousands would have passed on earth.

There are some ideas for nuclear propulsion: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_propulsion

There's also a few ways to make it easier.. one is collect your fuel enroute. That's a Bussard ramjet.

Other stuff like folding space, wormholes, warping space, etc all have some foundations in real theories, but nothing really concrete.

As for how long, who knows.. 100 years ago being able to call up high res images of the earth, moon, and mars at a whim for free would have been insane to think of, but today you can do it without even marveling at it.

[Flames_Gimp]

hmmm

[corporatejay]

Originally Posted by Thor

Once we are at the height of Nano Age, we should have a space elevator, much more powerfull propulsion, great shielding for radiation, etc..

The key is traveling to a place 20 light years away without returning 40 years later on earth, who wants that job?

So who knows, 100-200 years for the nano age to revelutionize the world in some pretty amazing ways, and maybe space folding, wormhole travel 200-400 years?

We need a way to get there quickly without wasting 40 years for a round trip.

Here's something that I learned but don't ask for the technical reasons behind it because I don't really know.

If you travelled at light speed, time would slow down for you, so even though it took you 40 years to get there and back and you would age 40 years, hundreds of years would have passed on earth.

[Cube Inmate]

WOW!

I skipped over reading this thread because I knew it was old news, but then decided to look since I saw it extend past 4 pages. The fact that it's evolved into a debate about the merits of having scientific knowledge is just too much to skip. I usually disagree with evman on issues of politics, but it's refreshing to see someone who knows what he's talking about in terms of science.

I'm tempted to jump in myself and do some crazy calculations, or explain travel at relativistic speeds with "thought experiments," but it's becoming clear to me that it's futile. Some people get it...others are working on it. Unfortunately, the rest...the vast majority of people...will never understand facts, preferring instead to rely on half-truths and misinterpreted facts.

I have nothing to add here...I just wanted to make note of how depressing this thread has been to me. I get easily depressed when I've been drinking.

[jammies]

Originally Posted by corporatejay

If you travelled at light speed, time would slow down for you, so even though it took you 40 years to get there and back and you would age 40 years, hundreds of years would have passed on earth.

Actually, if you travelled at the speed of light for 40 light-years NO TIME AT ALL would pass for you, while 40 years would have passed for everyone else when you returned to earth.

However, it is impossible to accelerate a mass to the speed of light, so at least some time would pass for you during transit (and obviously time would pass while you were actually accelerating to near-light speed, and decelerating at the other end, for that matter). If you travel far enough at near light speeds, though, it would be like a time machine that could take you to the future.

[Hack&Lube]

Originally Posted by FlamesAddiction

Just for discussions sake, if humans decided to try and go there to explore it (assuming there was a good chance that it was habitable), how would scientists approach this? It seems that physically going there by conventional methods might be impossible, but what about worm holes and interdimensional travel? Or space bending? Are these real theories, or are they just science fiction?

And assuming that they are real possibilities, how long would it take to develop the technology? Are we looking at centuries for a realistic time table?

None of the above are anything but theoretical concepts of things that might work IF they exist. There is a good chance they don't actually exist at all.

There is no way to work towards any technology or research toward utilizing worm holes, etc. As with all things in the Universe, we'd just have to look where we'd expect them to be based on those theories and hope to stumble upon them accidentally if it actually did exist.

And the timeline of any development and research is always dependant on politics and money. Most of our space exploration would not have happened if the Nazi's didn't develop good rockets in WWII and subsequentely the Cold War brought us into a Space Race. And there are always technological breakthroughs that really change the pace way things are done to speed things up.

First was the computer, supposedly next is nanotechnology which lets us design technologies and stuctures at a molecular (maybe even atomic) level giving us amazing machines or materials with amazing physical properties...also maybe even billions of microscopic robots that would do all the work for you.

[corporatejay]

Originally Posted by jammies

Actually, if you travelled at the speed of light for 40 light-years NO TIME AT ALL would pass for you, while 40 years would have passed for everyone else when you returned to earth.

However, it is impossible to accelerate a mass to the speed of light, so at least some time would pass for you during transit (and obviously time would pass while you were actually accelerating to near-light speed, and decelerating at the other end, for that matter). If you travel far enough at near light speeds, though, it would be like a time machine that could take you to the future.

are you sure about that? no time would pass for you? I thought you still aged. I'm not disagreeing with you, I remember learning this in astronomy 205 which was like 7 years ago.

[Hack&Lube]

I call for more research into extending the lifespans of humans so we can actually make these trips.

Something like a 500 year lifespan would be a good number for a round trip to Gliese 581C.

[Hack&Lube]

Originally Posted by corporatejay

are you sure about that? no time would pass for you? I thought you still aged. I'm not disagreeing with you, I remember learning this in astronomy 205 which was like 7 years ago.

Yes, no time would pass for you. That's difficult to describe for even for me to understand...technically time dilation becomes infinite and you would perceive arriving at your destination instaneously. But then again, since you are arriving instantaeously, how do you know to stop? How would you slow down? You would travel forever instantaneously to your perception...unless your ship hits some medium and slows down, you basically will percieve travelling for an eternity to infinity instantly.

But this is academic as it would take all the energy and matter in the Universe to even approach the speed of light. It's impossible to accelerate any mass to the speeed of light.

[Neeper]

Originally Posted by evman150

Much older than the Sun? Maybe, maybe not.

Closer to dying? No. Red dwarfs live for hundreds of billions of years, even trillions.

You're right, I was confusing with a red giant.

Any of you guys have the OASIS channel in HD? There's a program called Hubble's Canvas. It's spectacular! You should check it out.

[corporatejay]

Originally Posted by Hack&Lube

Yes, no time would pass for you. That's difficult to describe for even for me to understand...technically time dilation becomes infinite and you would perceive arriving at your destination instaneously. But then again, since you are arriving instantaeously, how do you know to stop? How would you slow down? You would travel forever instantaneously to your perception...unless your ship hits some medium and slows down, you basically will percieve travelling for an eternity to infinity instantly.

But this is academic as it would take all the energy and matter in the Universe to even approach the speed of light. It's impossible to accelerate any mass to the speeed of light.

but that doesn't make sense, in fact a website that i found indicates otherwise. The example use was that of a baseball in a plane, if you throw it up, it moves relative to you and doesn't slam into the back of the plane.

using that logic, my cells would continue to degenerate relative to my environment.

Why would my perception be instantaneous? wouldn't it still take 20 years for ship to travel at light speed? why wouldn't I notice that?

[ken0042]

Originally Posted by corporatejay

Why would my perception be instantaneous? wouldn't it still take 20 years for ship to travel at light speed? why wouldn't I notice that?

Einstein's theory of relativity states that as an object aproaches the speed of light, time slows down. You can even see this for yourself to a certain extent. Next time you have a long flight ahead of you (more than 8 hours round trip) set your watch to an atomic clock. When you get back, check it again. Your watch will be slow by about a second.

The thing to keep in mind is this is still a theory; we have no way or really testing it until we start building ships to go a significant % of the speed of light. People like Hawking have speculated that Einstein may not have been entirely correct about the relationship; or that there might be different rules in play once we leave our solar system or our galaxy. However both of those trips are still outside of our abilities.

[worth]

I'm pretty sure the theory of time dilation has been proven. They've put atomic clocks on jets and flown as fast as they can go for extended periods of time. When compared to an atomic clock on the ground, there is a time difference.

Also, Astronauts and Cosmonauts who have spent extended periods of time in space traveling 17,000MPH in orbit for thousands of hours will experience this:

"For every second you age on Earth, the cosmonaut in orbit ages 3 nanoseconds less. This doesn't seem like much, but it adds up; after a year the cosmonaut's watch will be 3.8 seconds behind your earthbound timepiece."

http://www.fourmilab.ch/cship/timedial.html

[Burninator]

Anyone interesting in learning more about space I recommend checking out Carl Sagan's Cosmos. The book is over 20 years old now, but still is very relevant. Plus Carl Sagan is a great writer and really makes things easy to understand and interesting at the same time. It'll also explain what a light year is.

The best-selling science book ever published in the English language, COSMOS is a magnificent overview of the past, present, and future of science. Brilliant and provocative, it traces today's knowledge and scientific methods to their historical roots, blending science and philosophy in a wholly energetic and irresistible way.

[photon]

Originally Posted by ken0042

Einstein's theory of relativity states that as an object aproaches the speed of light, time slows down. You can even see this for yourself to a certain extent. Next time you have a long flight ahead of you (more than 8 hours round trip) set your watch to an atomic clock. When you get back, check it again. Your watch will be slow by about a second.

The thing to keep in mind is this is still a theory; we have no way or really testing it until we start building ships to go a significant % of the speed of light. People like Hawking have speculated that Einstein may not have been entirely correct about the relationship; or that there might be different rules in play once we leave our solar system or our galaxy. However both of those trips are still outside of our abilities.

We do know it does work at a significant percentage of the speed of light as well from results with things like particle accelerators as well.

But yeah, if someone went out to this planet and back at 99.99% the speed of light, the person on the ship would only age about 4 months while 40 years would have passed on earth.

[worth]

Originally Posted by Burninator

Anyone interesting in learning more about space I recommend checking out Carl Sagan's Cosmos. The book is over 20 years old now, but still is very relevant. Plus Carl Sagan is a great writer and really makes things easy to understand and interesting at the same time. It'll also explain what a light year is.

The best-selling science book ever published in the English language, COSMOS is a magnificent overview of the past, present, and future of science. Brilliant and provocative, it traces today's knowledge and scientific methods to their historical roots, blending science and philosophy in a wholly energetic and irresistible way.

There's also a 10 part DVD series on it as well which is extremely good.

[evman150]

Originally Posted by Burninator

Anyone interesting in learning more about space I recommend checking out Carl Sagan's Cosmos. The book is over 20 years old now, but still is very relevant. Plus Carl Sagan is a great writer and really makes things easy to understand and interesting at the same time. It'll also explain what a light year is.

The best-selling science book ever published in the English language, COSMOS is a magnificent overview of the past, present, and future of science. Brilliant and provocative, it traces today's knowledge and scientific methods to their historical roots, blending science and philosophy in a wholly energetic and irresistible way.

I've read a review of that book somewhere saying that if there was one single book to act as an emissary, representative of all of Earth, to an alien race, it would be Carl Sagan's Cosmos.

I agree 100%. I have read the book a half dozen times, watched the DVDs numerous times. Wonderful stuff.

The book is 27 years old now, and it is a testament to Sagan that, for the most part, it stands the test of time.

[Burninator]

I didn't even know there was a DVD series, I'll have to pick that up. Thanks guys.

[worth]

The effects and stuff are a little dated, but it's an amazing series. I think it was produced sometime in the early 80's and they have updates at the end of each episode that were recorded sometime in the mid 90's. Like was said, it's amazing how little updating is needed. Carl Sagan did an unreal job with the series.