Too many [mod edit]: people with quads, 4x4s...

[Language]

Originally Posted by 4X4

MAn, this sucks... The ATV & 4x4 crowd are taking the heat for garbage and general insanity.
It's the people that show up in their mom's minivan just to get trashed that are the real problem.

While I agree the ATV crowd will probably get their fair share of the blame for what went on at McLean Creek, the entire debate has kind of shifted from the destruction the actual 4x4's make to the impact drunk idiots have.

I agree with what you said previously, that there are many many ATV riders who are respectful of the environmental impact their rides have on habitats living in the wild, but it's the ones that don't do that and create their own trails that don't only make the wilderness far from pristine anymore, but also destroy the homes of many animals.

What we're hearing about now with the kids from high school coming to party is an entirely different animal and probably has nothing to do with ATVing, unless they got to borrow mommy's 4x4 for the weekend and don't know how the hell to use it.

I still think that if people want to ATV, they should send them into the grasslands where it's nothing but field. I understand that animals still use the grasslands as their home, but at least less creaks and rivers will be destroyed by spilled gasoline and mud seeping into the waters.

I've heard the argument that if only a few people are causing a mess then it's ok but it's sad to say that it's gotten to the point where I feel that to protect the environment you just have to shut it all down because those few people are causing such a huge mess that it's not only bad for the environment and the habitat there, but it's also bad for the rest of the people who want to enjoy the wildlife and see it preserved in its original state.

It's not like I'm some environmental hippy either, and while I think ATVing would be a hell of a lot of fun, I just don't see the need in driving four huge wheels down the forest creating new trails, sending mud flying everywhere and disrupting the animals.

The 4x4 website listed above isn't doing itself any favours either with some of the articles it's got posted.

[4X4]

Originally Posted by Table 5

Maybe it's time the ATV and 4x4 crowd take a proactive approach to stop people who are doing this then instead of just sitting back and dishing out excuses.

They do. There are clean-ups multiple times per year. Various clubs will go on a trail ride explicitly to clean up. And you can bet that more than one club hung around to help with the maylong clean-up.

Seriously, your average ATVer or 4x4 guy is out there to enjoy his or herself responsibly. 95% of us clean up after ourselves. The people that are just there to get trashed (usually young people that just got old enought to drink) grad parties, people that hear that its a party from the news are the punks that bring out old cars to trash (and leave) and generally don't bother cleaning up after themselves.

You know, the more I think about it, the more I actually agree with the original thread title. There are too many losers and rednecks in the OHV zones, it's just that most of them don't have ATVs or 4x4's. They're in the frickin sunfire with a trunk full of beer and subs and amps just to get wasted.

I'd be all for some ramped up police presence. Even though there is the checkstops every year, it doesn't seem to be helping.

I say charge every vehicle entering the areas $50 and give them a big garbage bag. On their way out, if they produce the bag (full), give 'em $40 back. The $10 can pay for a few dumpsters.
That'd start weeding out the riff/raff pretty quickly.

[Cowboy89]

Originally Posted by 4X4

They do. There are clean-ups multiple times per year. Various clubs will go on a trail ride explicitly to clean up. And you can bet that more than one club hung around to help with the maylong clean-up.

Seriously, your average ATVer or 4x4 guy is out there to enjoy his or herself responsibly. 95% of us clean up after ourselves. The people that are just there to get trashed (usually young people that just got old enought to drink) grad parties, people that hear that its a party from the news are the punks that bring out old cars to trash (and leave) and generally don't bother cleaning up after themselves.

You know, the more I think about it, the more I actually agree with the original thread title. There are too many losers and rednecks in the OHV zones, it's just that most of them don't have ATVs or 4x4's. They're in the frickin sunfire with a trunk full of beer and subs and amps just to get wasted.

I'd be all for some ramped up police presence. Even though there is the checkstops every year, it doesn't seem to be helping.

I say charge every vehicle entering the areas $50 and give them a big garbage bag. On their way out, if they produce the bag (full), give 'em $40 back. The $10 can pay for a few dumpsters.
That'd start weeding out the riff/raff pretty quickly.

You seem to take offense to the fuel efficient Sunfire. I've been up to OHV areas many times during long weekends. While there is a fair share of 'Sunfire' people you describe I have observed many 4X4ers who are just as irresponsible (aka Sunfire people except equipped with ATV's dirt bikes and 4X4's). Like everything else in life the level of irresponsibility is negatively correltated with age. However if the point of people going up was just to get wasted while camping and have a big party why is it that people who are totally independent of 4x4's, ATV's, and dirtbikes show up at these OHV sites insted of other areas? Could they be, gasp, friends of 4X4er's?

[Barnes]

There are a ton a of reponsible groups out there that do a lot of good but there are a few who do much more damage. CJA has recently had some trouble with people knocking down fences and signs keeping people out of areas which need some time to recover as well as bypasses and bridges being ignored and/or damaged.

There has to be a way to manage the amount of ###### baggery that goes on in these areas no matter what the recreation type.

[Juventus3]

So now it's not the people using the areas, it's just the people abusing the areas. Wow.

Time for some people to take a look in the mirror.

[Thunderball]

Originally Posted by 4X4

They do. There are clean-ups multiple times per year. Various clubs will go on a trail ride explicitly to clean up. And you can bet that more than one club hung around to help with the maylong clean-up.

Seriously, your average ATVer or 4x4 guy is out there to enjoy his or herself responsibly. 95% of us clean up after ourselves. The people that are just there to get trashed (usually young people that just got old enought to drink) grad parties, people that hear that its a party from the news are the punks that bring out old cars to trash (and leave) and generally don't bother cleaning up after themselves.

You know, the more I think about it, the more I actually agree with the original thread title. There are too many losers and rednecks in the OHV zones, it's just that most of them don't have ATVs or 4x4's. They're in the frickin sunfire with a trunk full of beer and subs and amps just to get wasted.

I'd be all for some ramped up police presence. Even though there is the checkstops every year, it doesn't seem to be helping.

I say charge every vehicle entering the areas $50 and give them a big garbage bag. On their way out, if they produce the bag (full), give 'em $40 back. The $10 can pay for a few dumpsters.
That'd start weeding out the riff/raff pretty quickly.

Sunfires don't rip apart land and destroy pristine environment, ATVs and 4x4s do.

Is every OHV enthusiast negligent? Nope. But way too many do. These morons that you mention with their "sunfires" are likely there to get drunk with the redneck OHV user and wreck the surrounding area together, like they think they are entitled to.

I like your idea, but I'd more than double it. If it costs $20 a night to just camp, it should be $50-100 a night to go ape on the land, plus a $500 deposit for damages per vehicle... if the party of each vehicle produce one garbage bag, they get half back, if they produce two or more, they get it all back.

Time to get accountable.

[Superfraggle]

Originally Posted by FireFly

You noticed that did you? It's called generalizing... which is exactly what everyone is doing to 4x4ers. The point still stands that there are idiots destroying the area at most campgrounds, whether or not they are 4x4 specific.

Pot? I think I've found your kettle. Yes, it does indeed appear to be of a dark complexion.

[Flames_Gimp]

Originally Posted by 4X4

It's the people that show up in their mom's minivan just to get trashed that are the real problem.

i know a couple losers who "show up to get trashed" ...and then jump on their quads lol

[4X4]

Originally Posted by Thunderball

I like your idea, but I'd more than double it. If it costs $20 a night to just camp, it should be $50-100 a night to go ape on the land, plus a $500 deposit for damages per vehicle... if the party of each vehicle produce one garbage bag, they get half back, if they produce two or more, they get it all back.

Time to get accountable.

Yup yup yup...

There's got to be a threshold that will keep the random partiers out and still be affordable enough that serious OHVers can still enjoy their activity.

And as for the 'ripping apart of pristine land', again, look no further than your own house. Please, not only does it sit on 'once pristine' land, other chunks of land were clear cut to produce the lumber.

I guess what I'm saying is that it's so easy to diss OHVing as an anti-environmental activity because you can actually see the damage, but it's no worse than many other outdoor activities. Yeah yeah, there are plenty that are better... Why don't we all just live in teepees and hold hands all day instead of enjoying life?
Give the OHV crowd their playground and just stay out if you don't want to partake.

[J pold]

Originally Posted by Superfraggle

Pot? I think I've found your kettle. Yes, it does indeed appear to be of a dark complexion.

!

[FireFly]

Originally Posted by J pold

!

Mmhmmm. Busted by my own bad choice of words. That clearly deserves positive reputation for the valuable contribution that it made to this discussion. What exactly did the post have to say about off-roading?

In other news, I think it's great that there ARE off roaders who are striving to prove that not all 4x4ers treat the environment disrespectfully and are willing to help clean up the mess that others have made. Hopefully it helps them gain back some of the reputation they've lost because SOME people like to paint all 4x4ers with the same brush. Whether it helps their reputation or not, at least it will help others enjoy the area. Good on them.

[troutman]

The "bad apples" may have gone too far, and there may be no turning back:

http://www.canada.com/calgaryherald/...3-8720ad2d5575

Long-weekend partying is getting out of control and an opposition politician is calling for tougher enforcement before the rowdiness scares off campers and park users.

RCMP officers, municipal special constables, conservation officers and provincial sheriffs watching over three popular destinations wrote a total of 433 traffic tickets and recorded 150 liquor violations during the Victoria Day weekend.

The Calgary Jeep Association tried its hand at education with Indian Graves users on Friday, handing out information on responsible off-roading and garbage bags with Sustainable Resource Development officers.

Yet the 12 truckloads of garbage hauled out of Indian Graves is a fraction of what Sustainable Resource Development workers still have to pick up at the site, a department official said, adding: "It's disappointing."

http://www.canada.com/calgaryherald/...d-4c14e9684ddd

In the meantime, riding quads is one of the fastest-growing recreational activities in Alberta. And until recently, riders enjoyed a vast wilderness in the Ghost-Waiparous forest northwest of Cochrane.

Too many abuses on that swath of Crown land, however, prompted the provincial government to introduce an access management plan that designated a set of trails and closed the rest to the public.

That closure has pushed people south to McLean Creek and Indian Graves.

After his helicopter tour Saturday, Morton said it might be time to consider a similar access plan for Indian Graves. McLean Creek has trail restrictions, but they haven't been strictly enforced.

http://calsun.canoe.ca/News/Alberta/...01153-sun.html


"When it was a couple of dozen people using the area and riding their off-road vehicles, it was one thing," he said yesterday. "But now, it's come to the point where ... it's a couple of thousand people camping, using off-road vehicles in these small valleys, with no camping facilities, no toilet facilities, no fire facilities and a fair amount of irresponsible behaviour and a lot of environmental damage being done.

"We have reached a breaking point."

Can it be that only "1%" of the people are causing the problems? I don't think so. What % are driving machines through creeks and streams? Because every one that does so is violating the Fisheries Act.

[RougeUnderoos]

Originally Posted by 4X4

Yup yup yup...

Yeah yeah, there are plenty that are better... Why don't we all just live in teepees and hold hands all day instead of enjoying life?

Yeah yeah, there are a few that are worse...Why don't we all just buy macho-mobiles and drive wherever we want instead of worrying about stupid nature?

[4X4]

Originally Posted by RougeUnderoos

Yeah yeah, there are a few that are worse...Why don't we all just buy macho-mobiles and drive wherever we want instead of worrying about stupid nature?

Sounds like fun. Can I come?

[Rhettzky]

It's hard to try and defend off-roading responsibly after a weekend like that goes by. Every year there is someone air lifted out of there because of a huge brawl or a dunken quad accident. The place is an absolute gong show now and I can guarantee that the only campers that hit that place up on may long weekend are looking to get wasted and destroy things. Did you see the four couches on the news? They had obviously been pulled behind someones truck as a make shift toboggan. When someone brings a couch out into the middle of the bush with full intention of destroying it and leaving it there then what kind of mentality do you think they are going up there with? I'm sure they are not too concerned with the fisheries act and sticking to trails.

[Phaneuf3]

Originally Posted by troutman

Hike penalties
A Fine Fix - <snip> Hire more permanent staff to patrol these areas i.e. Indian Graves, Ghost Waiparous, McLean Creek and the forest reserve. Zero tolerance for littering, and destruction of the area with fines starting at $250. If vehicles get left behind, track the owner down via the VIN number and slap them with the cost of removing it and an additional $2,000 fine.

now this part i like. but the fines need to be stiffer IMO. when i go hiking in banff, especially if i hit any of the more popular trails, i usually come back with a couple beer cans that have been left at the sides of the trails by idiots.
if entering a c-train platform with an expired bus ticket can get you a $150 or $250 ticket (please correct me on this if i'm wrong - this is just what i've heard the fine is), dumping your garbage in banff, mclean creek, whatever other nature area people are using should be at least a $500 minimum -vehicles: $5,000 + towing costs. Due to the this being a very stupid and lazy thing to do as well as the difficulty of catching someone doing it, when they are slap them with a VERY hefty fine.

[4X4]

Originally Posted by Phaneuf3

now this part i like. but the fines need to be stiffer IMO. when i go hiking in banff, especially if i hit any of the more popular trails, i usually come back with a couple beer cans that have been left at the sides of the trails by idiots.
if entering a c-train platform with an expired bus ticket can get you a $150 or $250 ticket (please correct me on this if i'm wrong - this is just what i've heard the fine is), dumping your garbage in banff, mclean creek, whatever other nature area people are using should be at least a $500 minimum -vehicles: $5,000 + towing costs. Due to the this being a very stupid and lazy thing to do as well as the difficulty of catching someone doing it, when they are slap them with a VERY hefty fine.

Totally agree - especially about abandoned vehicles. I don't know what the fine is right now, but obviously it's not enough. And it's easy to track whose vehicle it is. Just hit the registry, then mail them a $5,000 fine. Then they can't re-register any other vehicles until the fine is paid.

[Barnes]

Originally Posted by Juventus3

So now it's not the people using the areas, it's just the people abusing the areas. Wow.

Time for some people to take a look in the mirror.

Uh...
Not sure if that was directed at me or not.

Why would I need to look in the mirrior for accessing public lands I have every right to access? Would you not allow anyone on crown land? What about grazing rights leaseholders or mineral rights holders? What about hunters and fisherman? Gate up all the roads and have only specfic land users access? Force everyone to "camp" in glorified RV parking lots?

I for one am happy that people want to persue activities that make use of land that all of us here "own" and can access whenever.

Get out there and enjoy it. Be respectful of other users and wildlife. Stick to trails, bridges and legitmate bypasses. Stay off private property. Close gates. Leave it cleaner than you found it. Tread lightly. It's not to difficult.