Ban organized religion, says Elton John

[Dion]

Originally Posted by Azure

And if you know anything about religion..you'd know that faith is the corner stone for every religious belief.

How do you back up faith?

What has faith got to do with this discussion of gays?

I'm trying to understand the point you are making.

[Cheese]

Originally Posted by Azure

Seems to me..you openly disagree with everything religion has to offer. Religion this..religion that.

Faith is a big part of religion...and probably something that allows people to have religious morals. Included in those morals is the belief that homosexuality is wrong. Something wrong with that?

Every sect, as far as reason will help them, make use of it gladly; and where it fails them, they cry out, "It is a matter of faith, and above reason."
- John Locke, An Essay Concerning Human Understanding (1690)

It's not that I have faith that there isn't a God, I simply lack faith in a God.

What if your wife decided that it would be best for your relationship if she disappeared for years and expected you to trust in her and have faith in her?

Imagine if an airplane engineer, for his own self-gratification, designed an airplane knowing that a hefty percentage of its passengers would die. Imagine also that this engineer dictated that the only way for a passenger to survive a flight on this plane would be to deliberately contact him and flatter him in some way. Worse, there are different engineers, each with different sets of rules, and the passengers have to figure out which engineer they are supposed to be in touch with.
It gets worse. Because this engineer wants his passengers to have Faith in him, there's no reason for him to make his presence known. That way, the passengers can't really be sure that any engineer exists at all. If a human behaved like this, most people (including Christians) would want his head on a plate. But since this is God's doing, this situation is somehow supposed to make sense.

[Cheese]

Originally Posted by Calgaryborn

I guess that would include atheists too.

Your circular logic is astounding CalgaryBornAgain....

[Resolute 14]

Actually, he is right in this instance. A fundamentalist athiest is as immune to logic as a fundamentalist Christian is. Goes with the territory of being a fundamentalist.

[Cheese]

Originally Posted by Snakeeye

Actually, he is right in this instance. A fundamentalist athiest is as immune to logic as a fundamentalist Christian is. Goes with the territory of being a fundamentalist.

LOL...a Fundamentalist Atheist? Sounds like something a Fundy would create to label an Atheist, as opposed to discussing the facts. Why not a "Dogmatic" Atheist? LOL. The problem with the label is theres nothing fundamental or essential for an Atheist to believe in.

As to logic...why dont you share some?

Christians, among other things, mean by "fundamentalist atheists" those who would deny people the comforts of faith (the old and lonely especially) and the companionship of a benign invisible protector in the dark night of the soul - and who (allegedly) fail to see the staggering beauty in art prompted by the inspirations of belief.

Should a "moderate atheist" be one who does not mind how many hundreds of millions of people have been deeply harmed by religion throughout history? Should he or she be one who chuckles indulgently at the antipathy of Sunni for Shia, Christian for Jew, Muslim for Hindu, and all of them for anyone who does not think the universe is controlled by invisible powers? Is an acceptable (to the faithful) atheist one who thinks it is reasonable for people to believe that the gods suspend the laws of nature occasionally in answer to personal prayers, or that to save someone's soul from further sin (especially the sin of heresy) it is in his own interests to be murdered?

Fundy Atheist

[Cheese]

As to Eltons speech re Religion....

Religions survive mainly because they brainwash the young. Three-quarters of Church schools are primary schools; all the faiths currently jostling for our tax money to run their "faith-based" schools know that if they do not proselytise intellectually defenceless three and four-year-olds, their grip will eventually loosen. Inculcating the various competing - competing, note - falsehoods of the major faiths into small children is a form of child abuse, and a scandal. Let us challenge religion to leave children alone until they are adults, whereupon they can be presented with the essentials of religion for mature consideration.
For example: tell an averagely intelligent adult hitherto free of religious brainwashing that somewhere, invisibly, there is a being somewhat like us, with desires, interests, purposes, memories, and emotions of anger, love, vengefulness and jealousy, yet with the negation of such other of our failings as mortality, weakness, corporeality, visibility, limited knowledge and insight; and that this god magically impregnates a mortal woman, who then gives birth to a special being who performs various prodigious feats before departing for heaven. Take your pick of which version of this story to tell: let a King of Heaven impregnate - let's see - Danae or Io or Leda or the Virgin Mary (etc, etc) and let there be resulting heaven-destined progeny (Heracles, Castor and Pollux, Jesus, etc, etc) - or any of the other forms of exactly such tales in Babylonian, Egyptian and other mythologies - then ask which of them he wishes to believe.

What do you think that adult would choose?

[Azure]

Originally Posted by Dion

What has faith got to do with this discussion of gays?

I'm trying to understand the point you are making.

Faith is the corner stone of EVERY religion. If you disagree with religion..you obviously..like Cheese..disagree with faith.

Again..is there something wrong with faith?

[Azure]

Originally Posted by Cheese

Every sect, as far as reason will help them, make use of it gladly; and where it fails them, they cry out, "It is a matter of faith, and above reason."
- John Locke, An Essay Concerning Human Understanding (1690)

It's not that I have faith that there isn't a God, I simply lack faith in a God.

What if your wife decided that it would be best for your relationship if she disappeared for years and expected you to trust in her and have faith in her?

Imagine if an airplane engineer, for his own self-gratification, designed an airplane knowing that a hefty percentage of its passengers would die. Imagine also that this engineer dictated that the only way for a passenger to survive a flight on this plane would be to deliberately contact him and flatter him in some way. Worse, there are different engineers, each with different sets of rules, and the passengers have to figure out which engineer they are supposed to be in touch with.
It gets worse. Because this engineer wants his passengers to have Faith in him, there's no reason for him to make his presence known. That way, the passengers can't really be sure that any engineer exists at all. If a human behaved like this, most people (including Christians) would want his head on a plate. But since this is God's doing, this situation is somehow supposed to make sense.

You see Cheese..this is where we differ. I still believe faith is an essential part of religion...but I do AGREE with you that organized religion is the cause of 'many' but not all of the problems today.

You can't prove faith...there is no evidence to do so...it is simply a belief.

[Cheese]

Originally Posted by Azure

You see Cheese..this is where we differ. I still believe faith is an essential part of religion...but I do AGREE with you that organized religion is the cause of 'many' but not all of the problems today.

You can't prove faith...there is no evidence to do so...it is simply a belief.

You are 100% correct Azure...FAITH is religion. There is nothing else. I have never argued against that. I too have Faith...in mankind.
My point is not that religion itself is the motivation for wars, murders and terrorist attacks, but that religion is the principal label, and the most dangerous one, by which a "they" as opposed to a "we" can be identified at all. I am not even claiming that religion is the only label by which we identify the victims of our prejudice. There's also skin color, language, and social class. But often, as in Northern Ireland, these don't apply and religion is the only divisive label around. Even when it is not alone, religion is nearly always an incendiary ingredient in the mix as well.

[Dion]

Originally Posted by Azure

Faith is the corner stone of EVERY religion. If you disagree with religion..you obviously..like Cheese..disagree with faith.

Again..is there something wrong with faith?

I believe in a God.

I have faith that God exists.

I have no faith in organised religion. Too much condemming and less acceptance, not enough forgiveness, and tolerance. In a nut shell God would say organised religion is hypocritical.

I don't need organised religion to practice what I believe.

[Kobasew fan]

Originally Posted by Cheese

You are 100% correct Azure...FAITH is religion. There is nothing else. I have never argued against that. I too have Faith...in mankind.
My point is not that religion itself is the motivation for wars, murders and terrorist attacks, but that religion is the principal label, and the most dangerous one, by which a "they" as opposed to a "we" can be identified at all. I am not even claiming that religion is the only label by which we identify the victims of our prejudice. There's also skin color, language, and social class. But often, as in Northern Ireland, these don't apply and religion is the only divisive label around. Even when it is not alone, religion is nearly always an incendiary ingredient in the mix as well.

You say you have faith in mankind. So you must have faith in the evil part of mankind as well where you have a guy walk into Dawson College and shoot a bunch of people. Or how about the Columbine high school shootings in 1999? What about Paul Bernardo? These aren't wars but they are certainly some of the acts of evil that comes from mankind. Not where I would want to place my faith, but if you want to that is your choice.

[CaramonLS]

Originally Posted by Kobasew fan

You say you have faith in mankind. So you must have faith in the evil part of mankind as well where you have a guy walk into Dawson College and shoot a bunch of people. Or how about the Columbine high school shootings in 1999? What about Paul Bernardo? These aren't wars but they are certainly some of the acts of evil that comes from mankind. Not where I would want to place my faith, but if you want to that is your choice.

And we can list many violent acts which go along with religion and the people who've put their faith in it.

What exactly is your point?

[Cheese]

Originally Posted by Kobasew fan

You say you have faith in mankind. So you must have faith in the evil part of mankind as well where you have a guy walk into Dawson College and shoot a bunch of people. Or how about the Columbine high school shootings in 1999? What about Paul Bernardo? These aren't wars but they are certainly some of the acts of evil that comes from mankind. Not where I would want to place my faith, but if you want to that is your choice.

Not sure what parallel your trying to draw here...are you suggesting that you can only be moral and do well if you are a theist?
Are you suggesting that I cant have Faith in mankind because of a few fruitloops?

[Kobasew fan]

Originally Posted by CaramonLS

And we can list many violent acts which go along with religion and the people who've put their faith in it.

What exactly is your point?

My point is that everyone tries to paint organized religion as prompting evil acts and it seems that most people on these board blame religions for evil acts. However, people don't seem to consider that even without religion evil acts still manage to rear its ugly head. I just want to indicate that faith in mankind isn't necissarily all it's made out to be.

[CaramonLS]

Originally Posted by Kobasew fan

My point is that everyone tries to paint organized religion as prompting evil acts and it seems that most people on these board blame religions for evil acts. However, people don't seem to consider that even without religion evil acts still manage to rear its ugly head. I just want to indicate that faith in mankind isn't necissarily all it's made out to be.

Did anyone say ridding the world of religion would lead to a peaceful society for everyone? Of course not.

But to say it isn't one of the causal factors in plenty of violence seen around the world would be misleading yourself.

[Resolute 14]

Originally Posted by Cheese

LOL...a Fundamentalist Atheist? Sounds like something a Fundy would create to label an Atheist, as opposed to discussing the facts. Why not a "Dogmatic" Atheist? LOL. The problem with the label is theres nothing fundamental or essential for an Atheist to believe in.

It is a misnomer, for certain. Though, as I have remarked frequently, you share many traits with fundamentalists. Particularaly extreme intolerance to other views, and a hatred of theism.

The point, which you so convienently ignored, as usual, is that extremists/fundamentalists are immune to any viewpoint they disagree with. Whether they are religious or athiest, or anything else.

[Dion]

Religion is used as a motivator for wars. That does not mean religion is responsible for wars. Mankind uses it as a crutch to justify his evil ways.

[kipperfan]

Originally Posted by Kobasew fan

My point is that everyone tries to paint organized religion as prompting evil acts and it seems that most people on these board blame religions for evil acts. However, people don't seem to consider that even without religion evil acts still manage to rear its ugly head. I just want to indicate that faith in mankind isn't necissarily all it's made out to be.

Yes of course evil acts will always be perpetrated throughout society. Fact remains religion and religous differences has played a major part in every major war ever fought on this planet in the past millenium. Your point is moot, yes people will commit violent acts that arent perpetreted by religion, but look at the millions if not billions of people who have died because of religion, you cant deny its role in the worlds suffering.

[Kobasew fan]

Originally Posted by Cheese

Not sure what parallel your trying to draw here...are you suggesting that you can only be moral and do well if you are a theist?
Are you suggesting that I cant have Faith in mankind because of a few fruitloops?

You can have faith in mankind despite a few fruitloops if you want. However, don't judge all religous people because of a few religous people who may go offside (ie. Vancouver mail incident).

It isn't my place (or any Christians place) to judge people, however, as a Christian I am called to tell people about Jesus. This includes opposing things that are considered sins (ie. gay sex) and not just being quiet about it. If a person wants to have gay sex that is there choice, however, I won't say it is right. This is based upon my faith that God does exist and that he will be coming back and that whoever has not accepted Jesus may regret it.

[kipperfan]

Originally Posted by Kobasew fan

You can have faith in mankind despite a few fruitloops if you want. However, don't judge all religous people because of a few religous people who may go offside (ie. Vancouver mail incident).

It isn't my place (or any Christians place) to judge people, however, as a Christian I am called to tell people about Jesus. This includes opposing things that are considered sins (ie. gay sex) and not just being quiet about it. If a person wants to have gay sex that is there choice, however, I won't say it is right. This is based upon my faith that God does exist and that he will be coming back and that whoever has not accepted Jesus may regret it.

How can you tell me about Jesus when you cant even prove his existence?