Rumor Control: Fidel Castro had died

[White Doors]

Lastly i just want you to tell me why Cuba should revert to Democracy, as you have alluded to numerous times? Is it beacuse Communism is evil? Because the US government mantains it is wrong? Or because it seems to work so well elewhere in the region - in areas with very similar natural resources(and MANY more trading partners I may add)?

Is Democracy the only viable political ideology? Does it work best in every region, with every group of people and every different economic structure? If you say yes to any of the above, please explain, i would love to here your comments

You inferred that Cuba is better off because they are a communist dictatorship, unlike some of it's third world neighbours who are democracies.

Now, please enlighten us.

[Dark Gretzky]

Originally Posted by FlamesAddiction

I thought it was funny how Castro offered aid to New Orleans after Katrina, and the U.S. was too proud to accept it. It probably would have gone a long way to improving relations among the 2 countries.

Castro was doing it to make himself look good. He was trying to make the US look bad for not responding so quickly. It was for his own personal agenda and nothing more. I'm quite convinced the man has no heart

[kipperfan]

Originally Posted by White Doors

You inferred that Cuba is better off because they are a communist dictatorship, unlike some of it's third world neighbours who are democracies.

Now, please enlighten us.

Painting my statments with a broad stroke ehh?

I'll indulge you once, but have no intrest in debating this with you. I think Flames Addiction put it perfectly, Democracy is not perfect, and for whatever reason doesn't work with certain people, in certain areas, and under certain economic conditions.

My main point in my additional post is I DISAGREE with the american stance that Communism is wrong or evil.

If you want substantiation for my intial though in this post, please go and visit all or some of the Latin amrican nations(i mean the cities, the slums, the real people) Go and see how the Dominicans live, Democracy isn't helping them the poverty there is hard to fathom, the smell in the air would tell the story without opening your eyes.

Now dont get all worked up "right winger" i am not saying Communism is better, i am saying I think it has helped the Cuban people to live to a much better standard than the people neighbouring countries, whose governments have the chance to trade with every nation in the world.

[White Doors]

Originally Posted by kipperfan

Painting my statments with a broad stroke ehh?

I'll indulge you once, but have no intrest in debating this with you. I think Flames Addiction put it perfectly, Democracy is not perfect, and for whatever reason doesn't work with certain people, in certain areas, and under certain economic conditions.

My main point in my additional post is I DISAGREE with the american stance that Communism is wrong or evil.

If you want substantiation for my intial though in this post, please go and visit all or some of the Latin amrican nations(i mean the cities, the slums, the real people) Go and see how the Dominicans live, Democracy isn't helping them the poverty there is hard to fathom, the smell in the air would tell the story without opening your eyes.

Now dont get all worked up "right winger" i am not saying Communism is better, i am saying I think it has helped the Cuban people to live to a much better standard than the people neighbouring countries, whose governments have the chance to trade with every nation in the world.

Wow, that was weak. You see and now you believe? haha
Democracy is about individual rights and freedoms, capitalism is about the economy. But you knew that right? The reason those countries are stuck is because of corruption, socialistic policies, poor economic management and lack of education.

And yes, communism is evil because that much power corrupts the human(s) that hold it and last time I checked, humans are very much capable of evil.

Well I admit to that being disappointingly easy.
pity.

[White Doors]

And who said democracy was perfect?

[kipperfan]

Originally Posted by White Doors

The reason those countries are stuck is because of corruption, socialistic policies, poor economic management and lack of education.

What causes these things to happen pretell? Elected officials is who i would hold responsible, you?

Originally Posted by White Doors

And yes, communism is evil

And...............Ignore List!!!

You can PM me when your IQ goes up, we will talk then K?

[calculoso]

Originally Posted by kipperfan

1) the Cuban people do NOT live in poverty, because of the communist system Castro governs from within everyone in the country lives at a very good standard(maybe lower than the west), but 25x better than than the slums and hell holes the fil most of Mexico, Dominican Republic. Unlike Cuba the aforrmentiond countries have people who are "haves" and "have nots", because of their bad econmies and bad governments, large portions of these Democratic countries have their people living in ramshackled huts and burning their garbage on the side of main roads(im not assuming this either, this is FACT, I have seen it with my own eyes)

Glad to hear that you're saying this. I guess it totally flies in the face of what all the anti-American people have been saying. Although the sanctions have no doubt made an impact, they aren't near as crippling as they are making them out to be.

Originally Posted by kipperfan

Is Democracy the only viable political ideology? Does it work best in every region, with every group of people and every different economic structure? If you say yes to any of the above, please explain, i would love to here your comments

The only viable political ideology? No, it isn't. That said, it all depends on who is in power. A dictator/king could be the best ideology, depending on how they rule, but it also has a great potential for being the worst ideology.

Democracy is no different. It has potential to be the best ideology, but also has potential for being the worst. IMO, the average democracy is "better" for "most" than the average country with a dictator.

If you value how the average person is treated, then the political ideology is secondary. It is simply one of many means to an end.

[calculoso]

Originally Posted by kipperfan

What causes these things to happen pretell? Elected officials is who i would hold responsible, you?

I would hold those elected officials responsible too.

That said, there should be a greater possible way to get rid of them than in the average dictatorship. Would you not agree?

[calculoso]

Originally Posted by White Doors

Wow, that was weak. You see and now you believe? haha

Do you really enjoy being a dick?

It's no wonder that most people don't debate with you. Keep it to the facts and arguments.. don't make it personal.

Sheesh.

[Kool Keef]

Originally Posted by kipperfan

What causes these things to happen pretell? Elected officials is who i would hold responsible, you?

You do understand that an elected official can be removed don't you? The people of Cuba do not have that choice.

[kipperfan]

Originally Posted by Kool Keef

You do understand that an elected official can be removed don't you? The people of Cuba do not have that choice.

Follow along in the conversation if you want be get involved, because you totally missed the point.

[kipperfan]

Originally Posted by calculoso

I would hold those elected officials responsible too.

That said, there should be a greater possible way to get rid of them than in the average dictatorship. Would you not agree?

I would totally agree, mostly just playing devils advocate, the white doorknob was pretty foolish.

[FlamesAddiction]

Originally Posted by White Doors

Democracy isn't a one size fits all government. It is precisely the opposite of that. A democracy is whatever the people make it and that's precisely why it is the best form available.

I was referring more to forms of social and economic administration, and how power is used.

I wasn't really referring to how leaders are chosen, but even then, I would have to disagree that democracy is always the better choice. Usually, yes... but not always. There really aren't any true full democracies in the world, but varying degrees - which I'm sure you realize.

It may or may not be for Cuba, although it probably is worth a shot.

[Displaced Flames fan]

Originally Posted by Flame On

Dis, not saying Cuba's problems are the US's fault. But they have a hand in their problems, even if getting out of them is largely their own deal.
However, I also think its a little naieve to suppose (as has been done in this thread, not necessarily by you) that the largest economy and wealthiest nation in the world, having large trade embargos and travelling restrictions on a small country, is not going to restrict somewhat, its ability to climb out of said problems.
Being tired of hearing the US is at fault for this and that, doesn't mean that there isn't a lot of debate that can be thrown at the US for this and that.
To be fair though I guess you didn't really say the US wasn't at fault for anything. lol
Anyway not trying to attack you just saying there's a lot to debate right now in the world.

Yeah, I don't disagree with you.

I think what gets me is the idea portrayed by some (not necessarily in this thread) that Castro is really a good guy and has been the victim of a 50 year smear campaign by the American government. Castro has to take some of the blame for the oppression of his people.

I don't necessarily disagree with anyone who has suggested the embargo should be lifted.

[Displaced Flames fan]

Originally Posted by kipperfan

What causes these things to happen pretell? Elected officials is who i would hold responsible, you?



And...............Ignore List!!!

You can PM me when your IQ goes up, we will talk then K?

You are pretty full of yourself too.

Evil is a funny word, but I would suggest that communism=oppression and oppression is, among other things, evil.

[transplant99]

Firstly, I am glad you have had some conversations with a few of the countries "escapees", I respect their oppinions, but I HAVE acctually been to Cuba 3 times in the last 5 years

Im happy you've been here....they LIVED there. I see a differance, even though you may not.

Firstly, I am glad you have had some conversations with a few of the countries "escapees", I respect their oppinions, but I HAVE acctually been to Cuba 3 times in the last 5 years(one of he best resort destinations in the world BTW). While there I have gone into a couple of the main population hubs including Havana and talked to countless Cubans. A lot of them of course are not well versed in Englsh, but those who are(ussually cab drivers, bigger store owners etc.) are very happy to talk about their country and th reality of their situation. Because of my immense intrest in Castro and Cuba I made a point to try and get info out of as many Cubans as i could, here is a summation of what I got, with a few exceptions of course, and what i make of it.

Good for you.....and I mean it.

However, I am basing what i said, on what THEY said....actual refugees that had no fear of reprisal. They are, at least as best as i can tell, now American citizens that flat out hate Castro and believe the country will be better off without him. I believe them...why wouldnt I?. They lived through his regime...I didnt, and niether did you.

2) Some cubans may want to leave, but it is FAR from a majority.

This, right here, is where I bow out. YOU dont know this, nor do I as an oppositional view.

Once more from the top for those that seemingly cant follow what I have said..

1) I believe, much like MOST exiles, that Cuba will be better off without a tyrranist.

2) The congress of the USA has made it LAW, that if Cuba comes to the dark side and ascedes that democracy is the way of the future,.......they flat out lose the embargo on thier country. Why wouldnt it be lifted? (Critical thinking folks, even if you dont belive the Govt).


My final words are this...Castro sucks. He and Guevera were (and he still is) murderous thougs that rule a by force, not by peoples choice. Go ahead and defend them...they are the same as all the other dead Dictators world wide....so therefor I dont like them.

I hope this is OK with you socialistic supporters?

And now, just for Zarathustra...Im going to the opera, wont be back for a while...that OK with you?

[Azure]

Originally Posted by kipperfan

What causes these things to happen pretell? Elected officials is who i would hold responsible, you?

And...............Ignore List!!!

You can PM me when your IQ goes up, we will talk then K?

How can you hold a communist government responsible for their actions?

BTW, nice move there with putting White Doors on the ignore list; perfect example dodging the question and refusing to face the facts.

[Bobblehead]

When I was in Cuba (Fall, 2002) I had a good talk with an old-timer down there (I actually bought some of his art).

He told me that all the kids were scared of Hemmingway because he was mean. That life has been hard, but he is worried about what will happen when the embargo ends. He is fearful the US will overwhelm the rich culture they have, and they will end up being bought up cheap and used for their resources. He knows it is coming, and knows it is necessary for his people's future growth, but worries his people won't be able to handle it if it happens too fast.

Castro is no jewel, but if the US can normalize relations with China, then Communism/Human rights can't be the reason they are still persecuting Cuba. I think the embargo is relic of a by-gone era, and it is being maintained to get the Florida vote. And until Castro dies, or Florida is no longer a swing state, the embargo will stay.

[Displaced Flames fan]

Originally Posted by Bobblehead

Castro is no jewel, but if the US can normalize relations with China, then Communism/Human rights can't be the reason they are still persecuting Cuba.

I was thinking about this point today, and it is a great point. The US can point to China's 'moves toward capitalism' as a progression that has led to the normalization of relations. The question is, does Cuba have the ability to duplicate that? Probably not. There's a built in bail out in the comparison for the US.

I think the embargo is relic of a by-gone era, and it is being maintained to get the Florida vote. And until Castro dies, or Florida is no longer a swing state, the embargo will stay.

I think this is a flawed argument. Cuban-Americans would, I think, be more in favor of improving the lives of their relatives/countrymen than continuing to punish Castro.

[kipperfan]

Originally Posted by Azure

How can you hold a communist government responsible for their actions?

BTW, nice move there with putting White Doors on the ignore list; perfect example dodging the question and refusing to face the facts.

Which facts might those be bud?

All i recall reading was inncorrect oppinions.