The Gospel according to Judas

[troutman]

Originally Posted by Clarkey

Well it's a registered religion in the U.S.

There are different branches of humanism. Groups like that register as "religions" to get tax exempt status and charitable status, but are not "religious" in any other sense.

Stop quoting your takes from little brown pamphlets available in your church lobby, titled "How To Debate an Atheist". Your barbs sound familiar.

[FireFly]

Originally Posted by troutman

There are different branches of humanism. Groups like that register as "religions" to get tax exempt status and charitable status, but are not "religious" any other sense.

Stop quoting your takes from little brown pamphlets available in your church lobby, titled "How To Debate an Athesit". Your barbs sound familiar.

And yet if Cheese is allowed to clump all 'Christians' together, why can't we clump all humanists together? What's good for the goose and all that...

[Clarkey]

Originally Posted by troutman

There are different branches of humanism. Groups like that register as "religions" to get tax exempt status and charitable status, but are not "religious" in any other sense.

Stop quoting your takes from little brown pamphlets available in your church lobby, titled "How To Debate an Atheist". Your barbs sound familiar.

I haven't read that pamphlet yet, I'll have to pick it up.

Cheese was railing off the dogmatic humanist commandments a few months ago, it sounded pretty religious to me.

[troutman]

Originally Posted by Clarkey

I haven't read that pamphlet yet, I'll have to pick it up.

Cheese was railing off the dogmatic humanist commandments a few months ago, it sounded pretty religious to me.

A great deal of humanist and christian philosophy is the same. Some people are both Christians and humanists.

Here for example is a Declaration of Humanist Principles:

http://www.calgaryhumanist.ca/declaration.html

I think most people would agree with all the statements, except for 3 and 10.

III. Humanists advocate the use of the scientific method, both as a guide to distinguish fact from fiction and to help develop beneficial and creative uses of science and technology.

X. A fundamental principle of humanism is the rejection of beliefs held in absence of verifiable evidence, such as beliefs based solely on dogma, revelation, mysticism or appeals to the supernatural.

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by troutman

A great deal of humanist and christian philosophy is the same. Some people are both Christians and humanists.

Here for example is a Declaration of Humanist Principles:

http://www.calgaryhumanist.ca/declaration.html

I think most people would agree with all the statements, except for 3 and 10.

III. Humanists advocate the use of the scientific method, both as a guide to distinguish fact from fiction and to help develop beneficial and creative uses of science and technology.

X. A fundamental principle of humanism is the rejection of beliefs held in absence of verifiable evidence, such as beliefs based solely on dogma, revelation, mysticism or appeals to the supernatural.

As a Christian I can endorse everything there except X. I have no problem with the correct employment of the scientific method.

[Clarkey]

Originally Posted by troutman

A great deal of humanist and christian philosophy is the same. Some people are both Christians and humanists.

Here for example is a Declaration of Humanist Principles:

http://www.calgaryhumanist.ca/declaration.html

I think most people would agree with all the statements, except for 3 and 10.

III. Humanists advocate the use of the scientific method, both as a guide to distinguish fact from fiction and to help develop beneficial and creative uses of science and technology.

X. A fundamental principle of humanism is the rejection of beliefs held in absence of verifiable evidence, such as beliefs based solely on dogma, revelation, mysticism or appeals to the supernatural.

Well from the looks of your name, picture etc. we are part of the same religion... flyfishing.

[Cheese]

Originally Posted by FireFly

*Ahe*Ahem*

Cheese? I do believe I directed this at you and while you laughed at me for not responding, (to a question that wasn't even directed at me I might add,) I shall respect my elders and refrain from such a tactic.


I will add on to that question, 'or that they believe in ANY God?'

My Kids can do whatever they please.....as long as they dont hurt anyone or anything.
The big difference between you and me is that when religion is discussed in our home we talk about the hypocrisies. If however my kids decide later in life to be a member of any Christian, Muslim or other organization it is 100% their choice. They will be fully armed with BOTH sides of the story. Thats something that Christians would not arm their children with.
I highly doubt that they will make the decision to follow any religious practise though....they can see through the thin veil quite clearly.

[White Doors]

"Thats something that Christians would not arm their children with."

How can you make a blanket statement like that? I grew up in a Christian household and was ENCOURAGED to question religion. Discussing it is not a sin. Therefore your whole hypothesis is incorrect.
Did you get smacked around by a nun or something?

[HockeyPuck]

Originally Posted by troutman

X. A fundamental principle of humanism is the rejection of beliefs held in absence of verifiable evidence, such as beliefs based solely on dogma, revelation, mysticism or appeals to the supernatural.

I guess this group doesn't believe in evolution...

[Cheese]

Originally Posted by White Doors

"Thats something that Christians would not arm their children with."

How can you make a blanket statement like that? I grew up in a Christian household and was ENCOURAGED to question religion. Discussing it is not a sin. Therefore your whole hypothesis is incorrect.
Did you get smacked around by a nun or something?

What an assinine comment. Do you think I have been absent from any religious teachings over my 50 year life? Do you ASS U ME everything?
Ill bet you $1000 bucks that 99% of Christian households never discuss the MERITS of Atheism. What a silly comment.
Ill try to ignore your nun comment for awhile...unless you start making more silly comments.

[White Doors]

You're the one who started the assumptions Cheese, just following in your footsteps.

[Cheese]

Originally Posted by White Doors

You're the one who started the assumptions Cheese, just following in your footsteps.

What assumptions? Dont come to a sword fight armed with a toothpick.

[FireFly]

Originally Posted by Cheese

My Kids can do whatever they please.....as long as they dont hurt anyone or anything.
The big difference between you and me is that when religion is discussed in our home we talk about the hypocrisies.

We'll start with this one. How dare you presume to know what is discussed when religion is talked about in my home. I'm well aware of the hypocrasies of Christianity, and I didn't come by that knowledge through you, thank you very much.

If however my kids decide later in life to be a member of any Christian, Muslim or other organization it is 100% their choice. They will be fully armed with BOTH sides of the story. Thats something that Christians would not arm their children with.
I highly doubt that they will make the decision to follow any religious practise though....they can see through the thin veil quite clearly.

Again, presuming to know what Christians would arm their children with. Once more you paint all Christians with the same brush and you really should learn to quit doing that. Again, don't presume to know what Christians would or would not do. There are some Christians that certainly would not arm their children with such material, and some that would. I'm quite certain that many athiests would just tell their children 'There is no God now shut up about it.' I don't assume you're one of them, however as you have pointed out, you don't discuss the merits of religion, just the hypocracies. Why don't you try arming your children with BOTH for a while, see what happens?

Did you teach them all about Christianity first and then discuss the hypocracies, or did you just tell them that Christian believe in 'some guy' and there's no proof he ever existed?

Besides, by only discussing the hypocracies of religion, are you not doing to your children exactly what you said Christians would do to theirs?

If your child came to you and said 'Dad, I'm a Christian', would you say 'okay son, good luck with that', and never bring it up again, or would you say something more along the lines of 'you do know there's no proof Jesus ever existed, right?' I highly doubt you'd never have a conversation about religion with your children again, and when you did, I highly doubt you wouldn't continue to 'discuss the hypocracies' instead of supporting their decision. It's the same with Christians. If my children decide to become athiest, that's fine. But it's not like I'm never going to discuss Christianity with them again. It's not about pressure or ostracizing, it's a discussion. I would question their decision, but that doesn't mean I wouldn't support it. You have to know how to plug the holes when people pull apart your arguments, no?

But I'm not you so I shouldn't presume anything. However, whenever this topic comes up, you only ever bash religion, you never actually talk about it's merits. And while I only ever defend religion, it's just that, a defense. I try to refrain from bashing not having a religion. (Though I do admit to bashing some of the things you say, I'm not saying atheism is bad.)

[Cheese]

Originally Posted by FireFly

We'll start with this one. How dare you presume to know what is discussed when religion is talked about in my home. I'm well aware of the hypocrasies of Christianity, and I didn't come by that knowledge through you, thank you very much.


Again, presuming to know what Christians would arm their children with. Once more you paint all Christians with the same brush and you really should learn to quit doing that. Again, don't presume to know what Christians would or would not do. There are some Christians that certainly would not arm their children with such material, and some that would. I'm quite certain that many athiests would just tell their children 'There is no God now shut up about it.' I don't assume you're one of them, however as you have pointed out, you don't discuss the merits of religion, just the hypocracies. Why don't you try arming your children with BOTH for a while, see what happens?

Did you teach them all about Christianity first and then discuss the hypocracies, or did you just tell them that Christian believe in 'some guy' and there's no proof he ever existed?

Besides, by only discussing the hypocracies of religion, are you not doing to your children exactly what you said Christians would do to theirs?

If your child came to you and said 'Dad, I'm a Christian', would you say 'okay son, good luck with that', and never bring it up again, or would you say something more along the lines of 'you do know there's no proof Jesus ever existed, right?' I highly doubt you'd never have a conversation about religion with your children again, and when you did, I highly doubt you wouldn't continue to 'discuss the hypocracies' instead of supporting their decision. It's the same with Christians. If my children decide to become athiest, that's fine. But it's not like I'm never going to discuss Christianity with them again. It's not about pressure or ostracizing, it's a discussion. I would question their decision, but that doesn't mean I wouldn't support it. You have to know how to plug the holes when people pull apart your arguments, no?

But I'm not you so I shouldn't presume anything. However, whenever this topic comes up, you only ever bash religion, you never actually talk about it's merits. And while I only ever defend religion, it's just that, a defense. I try to refrain from bashing not having a religion. (Though I do admit to bashing some of the things you say, I'm not saying atheism is bad.)

Flygirl...get off your pedestal. IF you ASSUME that Christians arm their children with the benefits of Atheism you have been drinking the wrong Kool-aid. I am 100% positive you wouldnt...as a Christian...but you arent even a parent, so try not to suggest what you "might or might not" do once that event happens.
My kids get Religious infiltration through school, other children, relatives, etc etc etc. We certainly discuss what "others" are talking about and where it came from. We allow our kids to openly discuss this and give us their thoughts.
So jump off before you hurt yourself....oh and dont assume a damned thing I would do, because you havent a clue.

[FireFly]

Originally Posted by Cheese

Flygirl...get off your pedestal. IF you ASSUME that Christians arm their children with the benefits of Atheism you have been drinking the wrong Kool-aid. I am 100% positive you wouldnt...as a Christian...but you arent even a parent, so try not to suggest what you "might or might not" do once that event happens.
My kids get Religious infiltration through school, other children, relatives, etc etc etc. We certainly discuss what "others" are talking about and where it came from. We allow our kids to openly discuss this and give us their thoughts.
So jump off before you hurt yourself....oh and dont assume a damned thing I would do, because you havent a clue.

Okay. So now it's resorted to telling me I'm on a pedestal and that I shouldn't hurt myself. Cheese, I realize that you've spent 50 years not being able to have a discussion without insulting someone, but I'd appreciate it if you'd try to learn how.

So, you tell me you're 100% certain about what I'm going to do with my kids, but I shouldn't assume what you'd do? Hypocrasy much? Should we now talk about the hypocrasy of humanists? Let's start with that comment right there. Let's move on to the pedestal you put yourself on every time there is a discussion about religion on this board with you being way up high, and anything religious living with the worms. You really, really, really need to look in a damn mirror before you start throwing **** around. I'm on a pedestal for DEFENDING Christianity? It's called a discussion. I'm not spouting off saying Christianity is the only way, and humanists are ****. That's you.

I don't ASSUME to know what ALL Christians say in their homes, I can only base my assumption that SOME would be willing to openly discuss other options because that's the kind of house I grew up in. And that's what I said. SOME. You should learn that word. You seem to have issues lumping ALL Christians in together when I am 100% positive you have not been in the home of every Christian in the world to know what we all discuss.

[troutman]

Originally Posted by Clarkey

Well from the looks of your name, picture etc. we are part of the same religion... flyfishing.

Memorable Quotes from
A River Runs Through It (1992)

Older Norman: [narrating] My father was very sure about certain matters pertaining to the universe. To him, all good things - trout as well as eternal salvation - came by grace; and grace comes by art; and art does not come easy.

Older Norman: [narrating] In my family, there was no clear division between religion and fly fishing.


Older Norman: [narrating] Like many fly fishermen in western Montana where the summer days are almost Arctic in length, I often do not start fishing until the cool of the evening. Then in the Arctic half-light of the canyon, all existence fades to a being with my soul and memories and the sounds of the Big Blackfoot River and a four-count rhythm and the hope that a fish will rise. Eventually, all things merge into one, and a river runs through it. The river was cut by the world's great flood and runs over rocks from the basement of time. On some of those rocks are timeless raindrops. Under the rocks are the words, and some of the words are theirs. I am haunted by waters.

The weather is getting nice. I'm getting the itch to get out this weekend. Flyfishing is sublime.

[troutman]

Originally Posted by HockeyPuck

I guess this group doesn't believe in evolution...

http://www.positiveatheism.org/hist/quotes/qframe.htm

People sometimes try to score debating points by saying, "Evolution is only a theory." That is correct, but it's important to understand what that means. It is also only a theory that the world goes round the Sun -- it's just a theory for which there is an immense amount of evidence.

There are many scientific theories that are in doubt. Even within evolution, there is some room for controversy. But that we are cousins of apes and jackals and starfish, let's say, that is a fact in the ordinary sense of the word.
-- Richard Dawkins

You cannot be both sane and well educated and disbelieve in evolution. The evidence is so strong that any sane, educated person has got to believe in evolution.
-- Richard Dawkins,

It is absolutely safe to say that, if you meet somebody who claims not to believe in evolution, that person is ignorant, stupid or insane (or wicked, but I'd rather not consider that).
-- Richard Dawkins

[White Doors]

"oh and dont assume a damned thing I would do, because you havent a clue."

But that's exactly what I am telling you. You have no clue about my upbringing, so don't assume it.

You should be prepared when you make blanket assumptions to have that done back to you.

[White Doors]

Originally Posted by Cheese

What assumptions? Dont come to a sword fight armed with a toothpick.

uuhhh.. THIS assumption:

"Thats something that Christians would not arm their children with."

That's the stupidest assumption I have seen in quite some time.
And talk about being hypocritical RIGHT after the fact.

haha
me thinks my toothpick is doing just fine.

[Cheese]

Originally Posted by FireFly

Okay. So now it's resorted to telling me I'm on a pedestal and that I shouldn't hurt myself. Cheese, I realize that you've spent 50 years not being able to have a discussion without insulting someone, but I'd appreciate it if you'd try to learn how.

So, you tell me you're 100% certain about what I'm going to do with my kids, but I shouldn't assume what you'd do? Hypocrasy much? Should we now talk about the hypocrasy of humanists? Let's start with that comment right there. Let's move on to the pedestal you put yourself on every time there is a discussion about religion on this board with you being way up high, and anything religious living with the worms. You really, really, really need to look in a damn mirror before you start throwing **** around. I'm on a pedestal for DEFENDING Christianity? It's called a discussion. I'm not spouting off saying Christianity is the only way, and humanists are ****. That's you.

I don't ASSUME to know what ALL Christians say in their homes, I can only base my assumption that SOME would be willing to openly discuss other options because that's the kind of house I grew up in. And that's what I said. SOME. You should learn that word. You seem to have issues lumping ALL Christians in together when I am 100% positive you have not been in the home of every Christian in the world to know what we all discuss.

Oh Flygirl...you get so hot under the collar....and still say absolutety nothing!
As Ive said over a hundred times now...so pay attention...I was raised to be a righteous and religious young man in a very religious family. I also dabbled in other religions along the way. I have as much knowledge and probably more than you do when it comes to Christians or others and what they would say/teach their kids when it comes to Atheism. As a matter of fact I never once heard in MY life, and never heard from any relative, friend or other I have talked to over the years, of a Christian family espousing the benefits of Atheism. Your pedestal Ms Fly is to assume I dont care about Christians as people and simply attack anything I say because I have a 180 degree philosophically different view than you do when it comes to religion. At least thats what you want to let me think.
My kids are well adjusted and happy, and I know you can attest to meeting one of them, and appeared to enjoy his company. The same son you met considers himself a Deist right now, and I certainly do not try to interfere with his choices. Young people tend to look behind many doors for answers that are generally right before their eyes in the first place. He will find the answer he chooses to live by...as will my other children.
Take my comments as you wish...if you consider it insulting then so be it...I could really give a ****e what you or any others think about my philosophy. However, when discussing something I think is relevant, I will chime in...as you do, as it is my right to do so. If you dont like it...well you know.
BTW...please when you are attributing something I have said, like the worms comment above, provide proof of your comment because otherwise it just shows YOUR inability to be open to others viewpoints without reason or hostility.