September 11th Thread

[RougeUnderoos]

Originally posted by Lanny_MacDonald@Sep 12 2004, 02:18 PM
There's an old cold war saying, What is one mans propaganda is another man's truth, or soemthing to effect. What makes us right and the other guys wrong? Because we were raised to believe we were right and no one would lie to us? Its all a matter of perspective and which side of the fence you're on. I'm trying to see things from their side of the fence, that's all. Unfortunately I dn't speak Arabic so can't post anything from their news bureaus that would outline the views there. I do notice that as soon as we hear something we don't like we immediately classify it as racist and garabage. Do you ever stop to wonder why? Do you ever consider we are conditioned to respond a given way?

That mideastjournal article I mentioned is about how the Jews control the media. It's not an Arab point of view. The Arab point of view isn't even mentioned. The gist of it is "the Jews are teaching our White* children to mix races".

The original publisher of the article is a goddamn white power organization.

[Agamemnon]

Just to comment on Muslim leadership and their role in perpetuating the problems in the Middle East. Several people asked why bin Laden and Arafat don't provide their own cash to help the poor and downtrodden in the ME. Basically, as most of us know, the problems out there are a consequence often of the regime in place, not direct Western influence.

Of course, given that the West either set up or is instrumental in sustaining these very same regimes sort of places a bit of the blame back on 'our' shoulders. We love the Saudi regime because it sells oil to the West by the shipload, but then decry Middle Eastern leadership for not curtailing intrusions on women's rights and such. I'm sure if we stopped buying their oil and reaping the economic benefits of being involved there, we might see some of these highly unpopular regimes start to become replaced. Iraq, Saudi Arabia, and Israel are decent examples of this. They use billions of Western dollars to buy state of the art security resources to maintain their hold on their populations. The oil comes from them, the money comes from us.

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally posted by Agamemnon@Sep 12 2004, 08:44 PM
Just to comment on Muslim leadership and their role in perpetuating the problems in the Middle East. Several people asked why bin Laden and Arafat don't provide their own cash to help the poor and downtrodden in the ME. Basically, as most of us know, the problems out there are a consequence often of the regime in place, not direct Western influence.

Of course, given that the West either set up or is instrumental in sustaining these very same regimes sort of places a bit of the blame back on 'our' shoulders. We love the Saudi regime because it sells oil to the West by the shipload, but then decry Middle Eastern leadership for not curtailing intrusions on women's rights and such. I'm sure if we stopped buying their oil and reaping the economic benefits of being involved there, we might see some of these highly unpopular regimes start to become replaced. Iraq, Saudi Arabia, and Israel are decent examples of this. They use billions of Western dollars to buy state of the art security resources to maintain their hold on their populations. The oil comes from them, the money comes from us.

O.K. lets get to the problem with that scenario

Lets say tommorrow Bush stands up and makes the speech

"Due to thier oppressive policies towards woman, and thier poor track record in human rights, the American people will no longer spend money on Saudi Oil, we'll send out money to South America instead"

So what happens.

The Saudi economy collapses completely. Working Saudi's are thrown out on the street. People become angry and the Saudi royal family, and the American's for screwing them over. A new government overthrows the royal family, a true radical Muslim government comes into place, because of thier anger in place over the American's and thier inability to fix the economy (Muslim lead governments seem to have a lot of problems with creating a stable economy). They cast a wide net of blame at the American's for destroying the economy of a Muslim nation, creating a lot of anger.

Young men, desparate for money and work, begin to join terrorist groups that promise money to thier family.

The moral, no matter what the American's or the West does in that region, they will lose.

The almost smart thing to do would be to emulate Reagan's plan with the Soviet Union, which would be to pressure thier economies into complete collapse and hope that a more moderate leadership can force thier way to power.

No matter what they do in the Middle East they're going to be un popular. If America got sick of the whole thing and withdrew, they would take blame each time some kind of disastor happened. If they continued to send humanitarian aid to these destitute regions, the radical elements would grow angrier at the American's for trying to meddle in on the Middle East.

Again I ask why Bin Laden, and Arafat and the other millionaire radicals in that region won't step up to feed and educate thier people

1) They don't want these people to be happy, and content because then they can't recruit new members, because then they can't count on popular support. They don't want them educated because as P.T. Barnum once said there's a sucker born every minute, and the dumber the better. An educated wise person is less likely to strap on a bimb and step on a bus

2) Most of the funding for these terrorists come from outside sources who would cut off thier funding if these terrorist groups moderated and used the money to build schools and housing as opposed to buying grenades, machine guns and plastic explosives from the countries that fund them.

There are a lot of innocent people in Palestine that just want to live a normal life, but they're finding themselves unable to do that due to the actions of the radical groups there, and there's no help on the way.

Its a screwed up region, and there's probably no way to fix it for the next 500 years.

Have the American's been a victim of thier own foreign policy? Absolutely there's no doubt. however you have to throw a heavy amount of the blame on the Radical Muslims who would prefer to see thier own people suffer, because it makes thier own recruiting purposes easier.

Whats my proof of this. The American's are more than willing to pump Billions into rebuilding Iraq, but at every turn the Radical terrorists are killing thier own people so the rebuilding can't be done properly.

does this sound logical, you'd think these idiots would want thier people to have a better life.

But they don't, you can't recruit a well fed happy man to sacrifice himself.

[Lanny_MacDonald]

Originally posted by Cowperson@Sep 12 2004, 08:34 PM
You're the guy always saying we need to ask some questions Lanny. Why aren't you asking questions of Muslims?

I have, to the ones I know anyways, and they have better answers to questions than the Americans I know do. These Muslims are not aggressive people and have a level of compasion that I find refreshing. Maybe its from being a minority in a land where they are closely watched, but I find them to be very kind and articulate in discussing the issue. I wish I could say the same for the Americans I know, many of which are close friends. Uniformed is the kindest word I can use to describe these people, and they are all college graduates, so to me there is no excuse. But when you wish to discuss the issues its useless as all people from the middle east (nee Muslims) are evil and plotting ways to kill Americans.

I would personally love to have an opportunity to discuss the issues with someone living in the middle east, face to face, and get their side of the story. I just cannot see the people being as vindictive and unconscionable as you paint them to be, not after speaking with those that have moved to our countries and were so eloquent in their arguments. Maybe I'm giving them too much credit, but I cannot believe that the general population of these countries are anywhere near the level CNN makes them out to be.

Tell me Cow, how many Muslim people do you know?

[Lanny_MacDonald]

Originally posted by RougeUnderoos@Sep 12 2004, 08:34 PM
That mideastjournal article I mentioned is about how the Jews control the media. It's not an Arab point of view. The Arab point of view isn't even mentioned. The gist of it is "the Jews are teaching our White* children to mix races".

The original publisher of the article is a goddamn white power organization.

Sorry Rouge, I didn't realize this was from National Vanguard Books otherwise I wouldn't have quoted it.

[transplant99]

I have, to the ones I know anyways, and they have better answers to questions than the Americans I know do. These Muslims are not aggressive people and have a level of compasion that I find refreshing. Maybe its from being a minority in a land where they are closely watched, but I find them to be very kind and articulate in discussing the issue. I wish I could say the same for the Americans I know, many of which are close friends. Uniformed is the kindest word I can use to describe these people, and they are all college graduates, so to me there is no excuse. But when you wish to discuss the issues its useless as all people from the middle east (nee Muslims) are evil and plotting ways to kill Americans.

So what you are saying is that the "uniformed Americans" come up with answers you disagree with.

That makes them wrong.

OK

[Displaced Flames fan]

Originally posted by Lanny_MacDonald@Sep 12 2004, 09:58 PM

I have, to the ones I know anyways, and they have better answers to questions than the Americans I know do. These Muslims are not aggressive people and have a level of compasion that I find refreshing. Maybe its from being a minority in a land where they are closely watched, but I find them to be very kind and articulate in discussing the issue. I wish I could say the same for the Americans I know, many of which are close friends. Uniformed is the kindest word I can use to describe these people, and they are all college graduates, so to me there is no excuse. But when you wish to discuss the issues its useless as all people from the middle east (nee Muslims) are evil and plotting ways to kill Americans.

I would personally love to have an opportunity to discuss the issues with someone living in the middle east, face to face, and get their side of the story. I just cannot see the people being as vindictive and unconscionable as you paint them to be, not after speaking with those that have moved to our countries and were so eloquent in their arguments. Maybe I'm giving them too much credit, but I cannot believe that the general population of these countries are anywhere near the level CNN makes them out to be.

Tell me Cow, how many Muslim people do you know?

Interesting that you separate Muslims from Americans. Are the Muslims you know not citizens?

I know, personally, I don't separate them. Why do you?

[Reaper]

Just to add some comedic relief to this discussion:

I don't care what people wear. They can be uniformed if they want to be. Clothing doesn't bother me in the slightest. I would prefer that people refrain from being uninformed so they can offer valid opinions on subjects facng the world today. :P

[Cowperson]

Originally posted by Lanny_MacDonald+Sep 12 2004, 09:58 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Lanny_MacDonald @ Sep 12 2004, 09:58 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-Cowperson@Sep 12 2004, 08:34 PM
You're the guy always saying we need to ask some questions Lanny. Why aren't you asking questions of Muslims?

I have, to the ones I know anyways, and they have better answers to questions than the Americans I know do. These Muslims are not aggressive people and have a level of compasion that I find refreshing. Maybe its from being a minority in a land where they are closely watched, but I find them to be very kind and articulate in discussing the issue. I wish I could say the same for the Americans I know, many of which are close friends. Uniformed is the kindest word I can use to describe these people, and they are all college graduates, so to me there is no excuse. But when you wish to discuss the issues its useless as all people from the middle east (nee Muslims) are evil and plotting ways to kill Americans.

I would personally love to have an opportunity to discuss the issues with someone living in the middle east, face to face, and get their side of the story.
Tell me Cow, how many Muslim people do you know? [/b][/quote]
I just cannot see the people being as vindictive and unconscionable as you paint them to be, not after speaking with those that have moved to our countries and were so eloquent in their arguments. Maybe I'm giving them too much credit, but I cannot believe that the general population of these countries are anywhere near the level CNN makes them out to be.

Nice attempt at a dodge but I've already stated in other threads before this one that Muslims in the Middle East in general likely have the same basic concerns as anyone in Des Moines, those being family, home and security.

I view them as ordinary people in most respects. Terrorism isn't what I think about when I think of the average Muslim. Its my big heart.

However, I've simply asked you what's to respect about a culture that institutionalizes racism, that marginalizes the rights of women and which institutionalizes religious intolerance?

Why should you, as an ordinary thinking man, respect a culture that appears to support those values? And with those values, which appear to contradict the values in your own culture, why would you think there is much respect on the part of Muslims for what you believe in?

What's so hard about those questions?

In the months after 9/11, a poll found that roughly 90% of Muslims across many countries, including Indonesia, believed that 9/11 was a Jewish plot and 4000 Jews who were employees in the buildings were telephoned the night before and warned not to go to the WTC the next day. By the way, 43% of Greeks also believed that rumour. Do you? How does that stack up against USA survey results which find that about 36% of Americans believe Saddam had something to do with 9/11?

Regarding CNN, which is it this week? Is it a government controlled mainstream media voice for the war in Iraq or an organ of the "Liberal Left" out to destroy GW Bush by mentioning body counts every half hour? Its a fact there are people on this site who believe both points of view about CNN and it's a fact CNN gets both those accusations with regularity. Or maybe its the "Zionist controlled media" we hear so much about from Muslim critics.

Do I care how many Muslims you know? Nope. Ditto the other way. I've asked our friend longsuffering, he of self-professed extensive experience in Muslim cultures, to enlighten us further with his expertise.

Cowperson

[Lanny_MacDonald]

Originally posted by transplant99@Sep 12 2004, 11:02 PM

So what you are saying is that the "uniformed Americans" come up with answers you disagree with.

That makes them wrong.

OK

No Tranny, it means that the people in question don't know the issues. When the average American can't name two countries that border Iraq, then they are incapable of discussing the topic. When they are incapable of telling you which party Saddam Hussein represented, then they are incapable of discussing the topic. When they incapable of namin two of the Islamic tribes that make up the population in Iraq they are incapable of discussing the topic. Its like talking about the American election and not knowing who the two candiates were or what parties were running. Its hard to discuss the topic when you're talking with someone who does have the remotest idea what the issues or ramifications are. Is that not fair to say? Good lord, the number of people down here that can't even discuss the issues surrounding the election is staggering.

And Dis, some of the people were not American citizens, so you can't call them Americans.

[Lanny_MacDonald]

Originally posted by Cowperson@Sep 13 2004, 12:00 AM
However, I've simply asked you what's to respect about a culture that institutionalizes racism, that marginalizes the rights of women and which institutionalizes religious intolerance?

Why should you, as an ordinary thinking man, respect a culture that appears to support those values? And with those values, which appear to contradict the values in your own culture, why would you think there is much respect on the part of Muslims for what you believe in?

What's so hard about those questions?

Why should I tolerate it? Because I ask them to tolerate my customs when they come to my country, and they do. They don't come into my country and raise a big stink about the way we treat our women or the way we do things that seem abhorently wrong to them. The accept the fact that they are in a foreign culture and keep their yaps shut, or adapt.

Yes, I do not like the way they treat women worse than cattle. Yes, I think their culture is very backward in so many ways. But I also understand how they come to these beliefs and that they are something that is not going to change overnight, no matter how many tanks you park on their streets. I accept the fact that they are the way they are. When given an opportunity I try and help them see our side of things and why we are the way we are. That's being fair to them and showing respect for their ways, which is what they want.

Its like living in America. You acceot the fact that they are extremely self centered and that everything in the United States is the greatest and that everybody wishes they were American. You just roll your eyes, bite your tongue and don't say anything until they broach the subject themselves. When they don't you go home, bang your head against a wall and take it out on Displaced and Tranny on CalgaryPuck. Tolerance can be a very tough thing at times.

[Cube Inmate]

(These comments are directed at the discussion in general, not anyone in particular)

We're uninformed, they're uninformed, yada yada yada! When you're talking about a world of 6 billion people with radically different beliefs and values all around, you're sadly mistaken if you think that "understanding" and talking will solve anything.

Anybody who thinks humanity has evolved into a rational animal is off his rocker. You want proof of this? Look around, even in Canada, which I'll hold out as the current pinnacle of western civilization. I won't dispute that our collective conscience has evolved to the point that we all consider murder, stealing, and discrimination to be wrong. Still, individual human animals do a lot of illegal, immoral, or otherwise frowned-upon things to promote their own self interest. If we can't even control ourselves in a society in which we supposedly share similar values, it's a pretty hopeless cause to expect logic and understanding to prevail in a conflict of fundamentally different values. Self interest is king.

To relate this to the topic title...

I wasn't this much of a cynic before 9/11/01. I can't say there's been much since then to help me get back to the optimism of years past.

[Cowperson]

Originally posted by Lanny_MacDonald@Sep 13 2004, 12:39 AM

They don't come into my country and raise a big stink about the way we treat our women or the way we do things that seem abhorently wrong to them. The accept the fact that they are in a foreign culture and keep their yaps shut, or adapt.

That's a little odd since we can see a move in Ontario to allow for Sharia Law as a dispute settlement mechanism in the Muslim community. And howls of protest in France over a law that demands women uncover in French schools.

Just some recent observations. By and large, I don't have a problem with the broad scope of your statement but its not quite as cut and dried as you're making it.

Yes, I do not like the way they treat women worse than cattle. Yes, I think their culture is very backward in so many ways.

That's very shocking!!

But I also understand how they come to these beliefs and that they are something that is not going to change overnight, no matter how many tanks you park on their streets.

But long term, you think they need changing? How intolerant!!

I accept the fact that they are the way they are. When given an opportunity I try and help them see our side of things and why we are the way we are. That's being fair to them and showing respect for their ways, which is what they want.

I thought you said above they just "keep their yaps shut, or adapt" when they come into a Western culture? If that's the case, what's to talk about? The great melting pot claims another victim!!

Its like living in America. You acceot the fact that they are extremely self centered and that everything in the United States is the greatest and that everybody wishes they were American. You just roll your eyes, bite your tongue and don't say anything until they broach the subject themselves. When they don't you go home, bang your head against a wall and take it out on Displaced and Tranny on CalgaryPuck. Tolerance can be a very tough thing at times.

Well, its encouraging to see you rising above all the muck once again.

Cowperson

[longsuffering]

Originally posted by Cowperson@Sep 13 2004, 12:00 AM
I've asked our friend longsuffering, he of self-professed extensive experience in Muslim cultures, to enlighten us further with his expertise.

Cowperson

If I thought you were truly interested in understanding what my observations of 'average' Muslim are and of Muslim culture in general were, I'd take the time to provide them. But since your mind is clearly made up - based on your extensive research of media coverage - I won't waste my time.

You acknowledge you've don't know a single Muslim, or haven't spoken at length to one in attempt to understand what they think and feel, yet you feel free to mock someone who has lived and worked among them and who has had those conversations. What arrogance!

Let me ask you a question. Why MUST anyone give a list of reasons why they respect Muslim culture? Is it not enough to respect Muslim people? Can I not respect their right to self determination - even if I don't always understand or agree to what they chose?

Since you're so big on listing reasons to respect anothers culture, I'm sure you won't mind listing the reasons why Arab/Muslim cultures should respect America's culture.

Is it America's track record on human rights at home? (But hey, they stopped lynching blacks (mostly anyway), some 50 or 60 years ago.) Maybe it's their treatment of their indiginious peoples? Or is it America's exporting of cultural icons like Brittany Spears or Allan Iverson, or Kobe? Or maybe it's the system of American justice, where anyone with a few million dollars can get away with murder, rape, child molestation, etc.

No, they should respect America's past and present support of governments (including the house of Saud, the Shah of Iran and let's not forget dear old Saddam), that oppressed them, no matter how corrupt they were - as long as they supported US interests.

No 'Culture' is intrinsicly evil - or good, or superior for that matter.

Acknowledge that and there might be hope for you yet.

[Cowperson]

Originally posted by longsuffering+Sep 13 2004, 04:05 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (longsuffering @ Sep 13 2004, 04:05 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-Cowperson@Sep 13 2004, 12:00 AM
I've asked our friend longsuffering, he of self-professed extensive experience in Muslim cultures, to enlighten us further with his expertise.

Cowperson

If I thought you were truly interested in understanding what my observations of 'average' Muslim are and of Muslim culture in general were, I'd take the time to provide them. But since your mind is clearly made up - based on your extensive research of media coverage - I won't waste my time.

yet you feel free to mock someone who has lived and worked among them and who has had those conversations. What arrogance!

Let me ask you a question. Why MUST anyone give a list of reasons why they respect Muslim culture? Is it not enough to respect Muslim people? Can I not respect their right to self determination - even if I don't always understand or agree to what they chose?

Since you're so big on listing reasons to respect anothers culture, I'm sure you won't mind listing the reasons why Arab/Muslim cultures should respect America's culture.

Is it America's track record on human rights at home? (But hey, they stopped lynching blacks (mostly anyway), some 50 or 60 years ago.) Maybe it's their treatment of their indiginious peoples? Or is it America's exporting of cultural icons like Brittany Spears or Allan Iverson, or Kobe? Or maybe it's the system of American justice, where anyone with a few million dollars can get away with murder, rape, child molestation, etc.

No, they should respect America's past and present support of governments (including the house of Saud, the Shah of Iran and let's not forget dear old Saddam), that oppressed them, no matter how corrupt they were - as long as they supported US interests.

[/b][/quote]
You acknowledge you've don't know a single Muslim, or haven't spoken at length to one in attempt to understand what they think and feel,

Actually, I have never said one way or the other if I knew any Muslims or had ever talked to a person of the Muslim faith. Nice attempt at a leap though. Don't hurt yourself when you hit the pavement.

I readily acknowledged that armchair quarterbacks like Lanny and myself could benefit from your first hand observations.

Let me ask you a question. Why MUST anyone give a list of reasons why they respect Muslim culture? Is it not enough to respect Muslim people? Can I not respect their right to self determination - even if I don't always understand or agree to what they chose?

Lanny was the guy beating us over the head, talking about how only mutual understanding and respect would bridge the gap to utopitan peace.

I simply asked him what it was he respected about a culture that institutionalizes racial hatred, that institutionalizes religious intolerance and that institutionalizes the suppression of basic human rights for women.

He was asking me to respect that culture. I simply asked "Why?" That put the pressure on him to offer reasons. By the way, why are you dodging the question?

While asking Lanny that question, I readily acknowledged, as I had done in many threads prior to this one, that the basic concerns of an average Muslim in Arabia probably revolve around the sames things as the average guy in Des Moines, namely family, home and security.

I also acknowledged that figures like Osama Bin Laden and Mucky al-Sadr have become admirable figures in opinion polls among Muslims, but only 8% of Saudi's and only 5% of Iraqi's indicated they wanted either to be in charge of their respective countries. Muslims seem pragmatic.

I noted as well that only through the elimination of liberal candidates in a recent election were religious authorities able to maintain their power base in Iran, suggesting Iranians are looking for something different in their governments.

Answering your question regarding western culture, as Captain Crunch noted in an earlier post:

First and foremost you are unlikely to see a theocratic government in the Western Hemisphere.

We went through the process of removing institutional racism.

We went throught the process of removing institutional sexism

Those problems still exist in western society but the trend line is a diminishing one.

In the aftermath of the 9/11 attacks, Sylvio Berlusconi of Italy made these remarks:

"We must be aware of the superiority of our civilization, a system that has guaranteed well-being, respect for human rights - and in contrast with Islamic countries - respect for religious and political rights, a system that has as its values understandings of diversity and tolerance."

To show how magnanimous we in the West are, Berlusconi had to apologize for those comments. Would a Muslim leader have apologized in the same circumstances? Unlikely.


No 'Culture' is intrinsicly evil - or good, or superior for that matter.

Acknowledge that and there might be hope for you yet.

Muslims are starting to question themselves, and yes, they acknowledge they might be the problem. From a thread I posted last week:

Asharq Al-Awsat newspaper in Saudi Arabia is arguably the Arab world's largest and most influential newspaper in that part of the world.

It's managing editor yesterday, in his daily column under a headline, "The Painful Truth: All the World Terrorists are Muslims!" had this to say about the aftermath of the hostage situation in Russia:

"Our terrorist sons are an end-product of our corrupted culture."

"Most perpetrators of suicide operations in buses, schools and residential buildings around the world for the past 10 years have been Muslims."

Muslims, he said, will be unable to cleanse their image unless "we admit the scandalous facts," rather than offer condemnations or justifications.

"The picture is humiliating, painful and harsh for all of us."

Care to comment Mr. Magnanimous?

And I'm still waiting for your answer: "Why should I respect a culture that institutionalizes racial hatred, that institutionalizes religious intolerance and that institutionalizes the suppression of basic human rights for women?"

C'mon man, sell me on Muslim culture. What's your pitch? Make me wanna buy!!

Cowperson

[Lurch]

Getting back to the original topic, September 11 will probably always be burned into my memory, and I have no doubt that for many this will be the moment where they realized that bad stuff doesn't just happen in other places. For me, my parents were in Boston when it happened, and though I remember logically knowing things were ok, the feeling that maybe they weren't was tough to shake until I heard from them. My worldview has undeniably changed - my wife just went to DC on a work trip, and I am sad to say there was a tinge of worry that something would happen. I think the import of Sept 11 comes down to the way it acts on our Western view that bad things should happen elsewhere and tragedy should only be seen on CNN.

Thinking about 9/11 always takes me back to videos they showed me in school from Hiroshima and Nagasaki. Bombing these cities was probably the most horrific act ever done by mankind, yet all I ever felt was a distached feeling of sympathy and a nagging feeling that what we had done (the west) was brutal beyond belief. I mean, why not drop one bomb on an island and demonstrate what would happen rather than wiping out hundreds of thousands of civilians. 9/11 brought home the possibility that this type of thing only requires being in the wrong place at the wrong time, and just b/c I voted for a leader does not mean I'm immune.

I think 9/11 is scary for North Americans b/c it lays our fears right on our doorstep. When atrocities happen in Japan, Korea, Vietnam, Rwanda, Iraq, Iran, North Korea, El Salvador, Chile, Russia, ad nauseum it never hits our psyche with a "There but for the grace of God go I" or something like that for the secular like myself. 9/11 disabused us from the notion that we are safe, and those in the rest of the world aren't safe simply because they are not as 'civilized' as we are.

[Frank the Tank]

Wow. I just got back to work today and had a chance to read this thread and was thoroughly stunned and disappointed by a lot of the reactions to 9/11. I, personally, will never "get over it" as some people have stated. I was on a plane with my wife on Sept 11/2001, going from Detroit to Las Vegas for our honeymoon. Our plane landed in Albequerqe (sp?) New Mexico and when we got off, we were told what happened. I remember walking through the terminal with my wife to get to our airlines desk to find out what to do and we stopped at the bar to see CNN. When we saw what happened we were stunned beyond words. To make a long story short, we met three fellow travellers all going to Vegas, so we rented an SUV and drove ourselves. It ended up being the highlight of our trip and we are still friends with our three American travellers, even though they are all our parents age and we don't have much in common. You can't compare this to any other episode in the world right now (Sudan), its unfair. And don't give me the "Chechyn's targeted children" crap, look at it in simple terms of loss of life. I will never look at the middle east the same and I don't really care what anyone thinks about that, its a plain and simple fact. I was directly affected that day and it will stay with me and my family forever. Whoever has the nerve to say get over it, needs to re-start their heart and give their head a shake.

[Cowperson]

Originally posted by Lurch@Sep 13 2004, 03:16 PM
Thinking about 9/11 always takes me back to videos they showed me in school from Hiroshima and Nagasaki. Bombing these cities was probably the most horrific act ever done by mankind, yet all I ever felt was a distached feeling of sympathy and a nagging feeling that what we had done (the west) was brutal beyond belief. I mean, why not drop one bomb on an island and demonstrate what would happen rather than wiping out hundreds of thousands of civilians. .

Not to be a knob, but the firebombing of Tokyo killed 100,000 or so in a single night and the firebombings of Dresden and Hamburg were positively nuclear-like in their death totals as well.

Come to think of it, The Rape Of Nanking by the Japanese killed about 100,000 Chinese civilians before World War II.

About 1 million Leningraders died in the siege of that city by the Nazi's.

Ah, screw it . . . . .

Man is an ugly beast, no matter how its done.

Cowperson

[Agamemnon]

Originally posted by Cowperson@Sep 14 2004, 04:10 PM
Not to be a knob, but the firebombing of Tokyo killed 100,000 or so in a single night and the firebombings of Dresden and Hamburg were positively nuclear-like in their death totals as well.

Come to think of it, The Rape Of Nanking by the Japanese killed about 100,000 Chinese civilians before World War II.

About 1 million Leningraders died in the siege of that city by the Nazi's.

Ah, screw it . . . . .

Man is an ugly beast, no matter how its done.

Cowperson

Hey knob, this thread is for 9/11 victims only! Your lack of kow-towing to this American tragedy proves your ultra-leftist intentions. Clearly, Cow, you despise freedom, liberty, and are a bin Laden sympathiser.

Where are the thread mercenaries now?! Quick, Cow just tried to bring up non-9/11 related tragedies! (where does this guy get off...)

Agree completely w/ you Cow

[Cowperson]

Just an addendum to this thread: The USA rebukes Saudi Arabia for religious intolerance.

A State Department report assessing the state of religious freedom worldwide said that in Saudi Arabia, freedom of religion does not exist and is not recognized or protected under the country’s laws.

The report also said that those who do not adhere to the officially sanctioned strain of Islam practiced in Saudi Arabia can face “severe repercussions” at the hands of the religious police.

Under U.S. law, nations that engage in violations of religious freedom deemed “particularly severe” are designated by the State Department as “countries of particular concern.”

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Bansal said the commission’s stand was based not only on violations of religious freedom within Saudi Arabia’s own borders “but also its propagation and export of an ideology of religious hate and intolerance throughout the world.”

Cowperson