Forever Canadian Petition Support (Alberta Politics)

[Fuzz]

To your first point, I disagree with "the need for others to also at least try to come to an agreement respecting the referendum result in good faith." Because no good faith has been used by the separatist and our own governments "fair deal panel" which is spreading laughable bull#### as fact to deceive those voting in the referendum, in a similar way to Brexit.


The referendum has been tainted by the same person who spent years on the radio spreading the same bull#### as fact and fomenting division. No, I can not respect that, and I sure as #### will not be cowing "in good faith" to those who would tear our country apart for greed alone. #### no.

[MBates]

Originally Posted by Fuzz

To your first point, I disagree with "the need for others to also at least try to come to an agreement respecting the referendum result in good faith." Because no good faith has been used by the separatist and our own governments "fair deal panel" which is spreading laughable bull#### as fact to deceive those voting in the referendum, in a similar way to Brexit.


The referendum has been tainted by the same person who spent years on the radio spreading the same bull#### as fact and fomenting division. No, I can not respect that, and I sure as #### will not be cowing "in good faith" to those who would tear our country apart for greed alone. #### no.

Democratic will absolutely does not need to be smart to be legitimate. That's one of the tricky parts about a free democracy.

You should absolutely use your rights and freedoms to attempt to persuade Albertans to see the issue your way and vote accordingly. But if they vote against your view to the level of a clear majority (whatever that is deemed to be) in response to a clear question (pre-approved by the federal government) then I am afraid you are stuck with the fact that the rest of Canada is obligated to engage in a good faith negotiation.

On that point I was just explaining in substance what the SCC ruled:

The continued existence and operation of the Canadian constitutional order cannot remain indifferent to the clear expression of a clear majority of Quebecers that they no longer wish to remain in Canada. This would amount to the assertion that other constitutionally recognized principles necessarily trump the clearly expressed democratic will of the people of Quebec. Such a proposition fails to give sufficient weight to the underlying constitutional principles that must inform the amendment process, including the principles of democracy and federalism. The rights of other provinces and the federal government cannot deny the right of the government of Quebec to pursue secession, should a clear majority of the people of Quebec choose that goal, so long as in doing so, Quebec respects the rights of others. Negotiations would be necessary to address the interests of the federal government, of Quebec and the other provinces, and other participants, as well as the rights of all Canadians both within and outside Quebec.

https://www.canlii.org/en/ca/scc/doc...canlii793.html

You cannot demand your opponent follow the constitution and then ignore it yourself if you do not like the outcome of a vote. And there is no caveat that allows you to not negotiate if you think the people who voted to separate did so stupidly or must have been duped.

Again, I reiterate, there is no entitlement to an agreement being reached, just an attempt:

No one can predict the course that such negotiations might take. The possibility that they might not lead to an agreement amongst the parties must be recognized. Negotiations following a referendum vote in favour of seeking secession would inevitably address a wide range of issues, many of great import. After 131 years of Confederation, there exists, inevitably, a high level of integration in economic, political and social institutions across Canada. The vision of those who brought about Confederation was to create a unified country, not a loose alliance of autonomous provinces. Accordingly, while there are regional economic interests, which sometimes coincide with provincial boundaries, there are also national interests and enterprises (both public and private) that would face potential dismemberment. There is a national economy and a national debt. Arguments were raised before us regarding boundary issues. There are linguistic and cultural minorities, including aboriginal peoples, unevenly distributed across the country who look to the Constitution of Canada for the protection of their rights. Of course, secession would give rise to many issues of great complexity and difficulty. These would have to be resolved within the overall framework of the rule of law, thereby assuring Canadians resident in Quebec and elsewhere a measure of stability in what would likely be a period of considerable upheaval and uncertainty. Nobody seriously suggests that our national existence, seamless in so many aspects, could be effortlessly separated along what are now the provincial boundaries of Quebec.

[Geraldsh]

To paraphrase a quote from 1860’s possible secession of South Carolina
“To small to be a country and to big to be an insane asylum “

[GranteedEV]

Originally Posted by 14Roman14

There are definitely a few of you very passionate about signing and getting signatures to stay in Canada.
What are some of the major reasons you would not support Western independence and some of the major advantages you see for Albertans if we stay?

Let's talk about values.

1) I value education and critical thought.

I used to be a proud Albertan because in my childhood (Premier Ralph Klein, PM Jean Cretien era), Alberta was consistently the national leader in education. The reason for this was because the government dating back to the days of Peter Lougheed believed that investing in education was paramount.

But this is also a core Canadian value. Canada is one of, if not the most educated countries in the world. We value education, and that allows us to be a country that produces quality. Quality in metrics like worker safety, engineering standards, health standards, quality of living standards... the list goes on, but at their core, is education and scientific approaches.

The current Alberta UCP government is one that is anti-science, anti-education, pro-propaganda. In a hypothetical world where the land of Alberta were a sovereign nation, this current Alberta UCP government would cause this land, to decline rapidly away from the Canadian values that built it to be a prosperous land.

And in a world where controlling information is power, and the means of information control are either owned by eastern Canada and from corporations in the United States, an Alberta separate from Canada would therefore be even more strongly influenced by the United States than it already so dangerously is. A United States that is openly fascist. You know what fascism is, right? I hope so, because your education allowed you to learn to identify the signs. Well guess what, a bonafide fascist United States of America influencing an already borderline-Fascist Alberta would lead to... a bonafide fascist Alberta. These claims sound fantastical to me to even be needing to discuss in the year 2025 and yet - the facts point to it being far closer to reality than not. It is ####ing terrifying.

2) I value safety.

I am aware of foreign threats to my safety. From the south, a fascist US government looking to annex us. From the north, an authoritarian Russian government that is deterred by Canada's membership in NATO yet still performs successful pysops to deteriorate the strength of the Canadian values. From across the Pacific, more pysops and other forms of foreign interference. Not only would a quoteunquote independent west lack the diplomatic means to protect us from these threads, it would lack the military means. So your safety would be dependant on... about a century of military cooperation between Canada, Europe and the US. Sure does not sound independant to me.

I value the safety of vulnerable populations and minorities to not be subjected to the aformentioned facist American attitudes and policies that are driven by Christian Nationalism and White Supremecy. These are not the Alberta I want, are they the Alberta you want? They are the Alberta the separatists want and they are the Alberta the rich Americans fueling the fire want so that they can take our abundant resources for themselves and turn us into a territory. History has taught us that fascists target the weakest people in order to divide people and smokescreen their atrocious policies.

I also value the safety of kids to go to school without a mass shooting. An Alberta that lacks the Canadian value of gun control would so quickly open up access to American style gun politics that you would be hearing about shootings at John F Deifenbaker or Sir Winston Churchill Senior High. Is that the "Independant West" you want?

3) I value social and economic security.

I'm somewhere between a socialist and a liberal politically. Exactly where, I couldn't tell you, but I believe that I should be paying taxes so that everyone, no matter their situation - gainfully employed, unemployed, entrepreneur, student, single mother scraping by, people affected by long covid, all of these people should be able to access health care, education, means of meeting the basic needs of food and shelter.

You know, basically what Canada on a whole values. What the UCP is ####ting on.

The United States of America does not value this. Even in a progressive state like California can they not hit the things us Canadians take for ####ing granted. Have you ever had a birth in your family? A child of your own, or a nephew, or a niece, or a cousin. A basic event like this should not put any family into five, six figures of debt, but this is how a capitalist society with private health care works.

A west that is moving away from Canada, is moving towards America. It's moving towards a gross quality of life for all but the rich.

Beyond that though, it's simply impossible for a landlocked region surrounded by Canada to the west, north, east and USA to the south to have anything resembling a functionally independant economy. Your job will suddenly become even more critically dependant on the whims of American O&G corporations. They'll start buying the small producers, then they'll move to the AltaGas' and the Cenovus'. And the crown corporations... like Trans Mountain... they wouldn't belong to Alberta, they would need to leave Alberta.

The pipelines to BC or Manitoba or Quebec we dream of to get our O&G to Europe and Asia? A pipedream at that point. You've lost any influence Alberta had on Canada (which is a lot more than people are willing to admit.

That isn't an independant west, it's a west controlled by American interests.

That's three basic reasons which I hope suffice, for telling you why I am a Canadian, and shouldn't even be having to sign a ####ing petition to state I am Forever Canadian. But here was are, and any of us that haven't signed the petition need to go sign the petition. And we need to heal our province by booting the UCP, and addressing the propaganda poisoning problem.

[Geraldsh]

Originally Posted by GranteedEV

Let's talk about values.

1) I value education and critical thought.

I used to be a proud Albertan because in my childhood (Premier Ralph Klein, PM Jean Cretien era), Alberta was consistently the national leader in education. The reason for this was because the government dating back to the days of Peter Lougheed believed that investing in education was paramount.

But this is also a core Canadian value. Canada is one of, if not the most educated countries in the world. We value education, and that allows us to be a country that produces quality. Quality in metrics like worker safety, engineering standards, health standards, quality of living standards... the list goes on, but at their core, is education and scientific approaches.

The current Alberta UCP government is one that is anti-science, anti-education, pro-propaganda. In a hypothetical world where the land of Alberta were a sovereign nation, this current Alberta UCP government would cause this land, to decline rapidly away from the Canadian values that built it to be a prosperous land.

And in a world where controlling information is power, and the means of information control are either owned by eastern Canada and from corporations in the United States, an Alberta separate from Canada would therefore be even more strongly influenced by the United States than it already so dangerously is. A United States that is openly fascist. You know what fascism is, right? I hope so, because your education allowed you to learn to identify the signs. Well guess what, a bonafide fascist United States of America influencing an already borderline-Fascist Alberta would lead to... a bonafide fascist Alberta. These claims sound fantastical to me to even be needing to discuss in the year 2025 and yet - the facts point to it being far closer to reality than not. It is ####ing terrifying.

2) I value safety.

I am aware of foreign threats to my safety. From the south, a fascist US government looking to annex us. From the north, an authoritarian Russian government that is deterred by Canada's membership in NATO yet still performs successful pysops to deteriorate the strength of the Canadian values. From across the Pacific, more pysops and other forms of foreign interference. Not only would a quoteunquote independent west lack the diplomatic means to protect us from these threads, it would lack the military means. So your safety would be dependant on... about a century of military cooperation between Canada, Europe and the US. Sure does not sound independant to me.

I value the safety of vulnerable populations and minorities to not be subjected to the aformentioned facist American attitudes and policies that are driven by Christian Nationalism and White Supremecy. These are not the Alberta I want, are they the Alberta you want? They are the Alberta the separatists want and they are the Alberta the rich Americans fueling the fire want so that they can take our abundant resources for themselves and turn us into a territory. History has taught us that fascists target the weakest people in order to divide people and smokescreen their atrocious policies.

I also value the safety of kids to go to school without a mass shooting. An Alberta that lacks the Canadian value of gun control would so quickly open up access to American style gun politics that you would be hearing about shootings at John F Deifenbaker or Sir Winston Churchill Senior High. Is that the "Independant West" you want?

3) I value social and economic security.

I'm somewhere between a socialist and a liberal politically. Exactly where, I couldn't tell you, but I believe that I should be paying taxes so that everyone, no matter their situation - gainfully employed, unemployed, entrepreneur, student, single mother scraping by, people affected by long covid, all of these people should be able to access health care, education, means of meeting the basic needs of food and shelter.

You know, basically what Canada on a whole values. What the UCP is ####ting on.

The United States of America does not value this. Even in a progressive state like California can they not hit the things us Canadians take for ####ing granted. Have you ever had a birth in your family? A child of your own, or a nephew, or a niece, or a cousin. A basic event like this should not put any family into five, six figures of debt, but this is how a capitalist society with private health care works.

A west that is moving away from Canada, is moving towards America. It's moving towards a gross quality of life for all but the rich.

Beyond that though, it's simply impossible for a landlocked region surrounded by Canada to the west, north, east and USA to the south to have anything resembling a functionally independant economy. Your job will suddenly become even more critically dependant on the whims of American O&G corporations. They'll start buying the small producers, then they'll move to the AltaGas' and the Cenovus'. And the crown corporations... like Trans Mountain... they wouldn't belong to Alberta, they would need to leave Alberta.

The pipelines to BC or Manitoba or Quebec we dream of to get our O&G to Europe and Asia? A pipedream at that point. You've lost any influence Alberta had on Canada (which is a lot more than people are willing to admit.

That isn't an independant west, it's a west controlled by American interests.

That's three basic reasons which I hope suffice, for telling you why I am a Canadian, and shouldn't even be having to sign a ####ing petition to state I am Forever Canadian. But here was are, and any of us that haven't signed the petition need to go sign the petition. And we need to heal our province by booting the UCP, and addressing the propaganda poisoning problem.

Thank you for this post, I will print it to read to certain aquaintances.

[Fuzz]

Originally Posted by MBates

Democratic will absolutely does not need to be smart to be legitimate. That's one of the tricky parts about a free democracy.

You should absolutely use your rights and freedoms to attempt to persuade Albertans to see the issue your way and vote accordingly. But if they vote against your view to the level of a clear majority (whatever that is deemed to be) in response to a clear question (pre-approved by the federal government) then I am afraid you are stuck with the fact that the rest of Canada is obligated to engage in a good faith negotiation.

On that point I was just explaining in substance what the SCC ruled:

https://www.canlii.org/en/ca/scc/doc...canlii793.html

You cannot demand your opponent follow the constitution and then ignore it yourself if you do not like the outcome of a vote. And there is no caveat that allows you to not negotiate if you think the people who voted to separate did so stupidly or must have been duped.

Again, I reiterate, there is no entitlement to an agreement being reached, just an attempt:

I just disagree that fighting fire with paperwork is the right way to proceed. Giving respect to the liars and deceivers is exactly how the Democrats lost America to the Fascists. Exposing Smith before the election as a liar and incompetent fool didn't result in her not getting elected.

[Knut]

Signed this morning. Glad someone had set it up near the lake in Lake Bonavista.

[Amethyst]

I now have my credentials and some forms if anyone is looking to sign the petition in far northeast Calgary (Saddleridge, etc.) Could easily meet at the Genesis Centre or the airport.

[WideReceiver]

Three of us set up today and got 102 signatures in two hours. It’s our third Saturday in the same spot. Many came by word of mouth. Consider permanent locations.

[indes]

Originally Posted by Fuzz

I just disagree that fighting fire with paperwork is the right way to proceed. Giving respect to the liars and deceivers is exactly how the Democrats lost America to the Fascists. Exposing Smith before the election as a liar and incompetent fool didn't result in her not getting elected.

Easier said than done when all these rubes will lap up any lie told to them. The truth doesn't even register with someone who believes a separated Alberta will lead to them having a 4million dollar Alberta Pension Plan account.

[Julio]

Originally Posted by Julio

There isn't any listing of anybody collecting signatures at McMahon on Monday. Not sure if anybody would be able to do it at the Stadium itself, but maybe by the C Train stations before and after the game?

I see McMahon is up on the list for tomorrow.

[Plett25]

Originally Posted by GranteedEV

Let's talk about values.

1) I value education and critical thought.

I used to be a proud Albertan because in my childhood (Premier Ralph Klein, PM Jean Cretien era), Alberta was consistently the national leader in education. The reason for this was because the government dating back to the days of Peter Lougheed believed that investing in education was paramount.

But this is also a core Canadian value. Canada is one of, if not the most educated countries in the world. We value education, and that allows us to be a country that produces quality. Quality in metrics like worker safety, engineering standards, health standards, quality of living standards... the list goes on, but at their core, is education and scientific approaches.

The current Alberta UCP government is one that is anti-science, anti-education, pro-propaganda. In a hypothetical world where the land of Alberta were a sovereign nation, this current Alberta UCP government would cause this land, to decline rapidly away from the Canadian values that built it to be a prosperous land.

And in a world where controlling information is power, and the means of information control are either owned by eastern Canada and from corporations in the United States, an Alberta separate from Canada would therefore be even more strongly influenced by the United States than it already so dangerously is. A United States that is openly fascist. You know what fascism is, right? I hope so, because your education allowed you to learn to identify the signs. Well guess what, a bonafide fascist United States of America influencing an already borderline-Fascist Alberta would lead to... a bonafide fascist Alberta. These claims sound fantastical to me to even be needing to discuss in the year 2025 and yet - the facts point to it being far closer to reality than not. It is ####ing terrifying.

2) I value safety.

I am aware of foreign threats to my safety. From the south, a fascist US government looking to annex us. From the north, an authoritarian Russian government that is deterred by Canada's membership in NATO yet still performs successful pysops to deteriorate the strength of the Canadian values. From across the Pacific, more pysops and other forms of foreign interference. Not only would a quoteunquote independent west lack the diplomatic means to protect us from these threads, it would lack the military means. So your safety would be dependant on... about a century of military cooperation between Canada, Europe and the US. Sure does not sound independant to me.

I value the safety of vulnerable populations and minorities to not be subjected to the aformentioned facist American attitudes and policies that are driven by Christian Nationalism and White Supremecy. These are not the Alberta I want, are they the Alberta you want? They are the Alberta the separatists want and they are the Alberta the rich Americans fueling the fire want so that they can take our abundant resources for themselves and turn us into a territory. History has taught us that fascists target the weakest people in order to divide people and smokescreen their atrocious policies.

I also value the safety of kids to go to school without a mass shooting. An Alberta that lacks the Canadian value of gun control would so quickly open up access to American style gun politics that you would be hearing about shootings at John F Deifenbaker or Sir Winston Churchill Senior High. Is that the "Independant West" you want?

3) I value social and economic security.

I'm somewhere between a socialist and a liberal politically. Exactly where, I couldn't tell you, but I believe that I should be paying taxes so that everyone, no matter their situation - gainfully employed, unemployed, entrepreneur, student, single mother scraping by, people affected by long covid, all of these people should be able to access health care, education, means of meeting the basic needs of food and shelter.

You know, basically what Canada on a whole values. What the UCP is ####ting on.

The United States of America does not value this. Even in a progressive state like California can they not hit the things us Canadians take for ####ing granted. Have you ever had a birth in your family? A child of your own, or a nephew, or a niece, or a cousin. A basic event like this should not put any family into five, six figures of debt, but this is how a capitalist society with private health care works.

A west that is moving away from Canada, is moving towards America. It's moving towards a gross quality of life for all but the rich.

Beyond that though, it's simply impossible for a landlocked region surrounded by Canada to the west, north, east and USA to the south to have anything resembling a functionally independant economy. Your job will suddenly become even more critically dependant on the whims of American O&G corporations. They'll start buying the small producers, then they'll move to the AltaGas' and the Cenovus'. And the crown corporations... like Trans Mountain... they wouldn't belong to Alberta, they would need to leave Alberta.

The pipelines to BC or Manitoba or Quebec we dream of to get our O&G to Europe and Asia? A pipedream at that point. You've lost any influence Alberta had on Canada (which is a lot more than people are willing to admit.

That isn't an independant west, it's a west controlled by American interests.

That's three basic reasons which I hope suffice, for telling you why I am a Canadian, and shouldn't even be having to sign a ####ing petition to state I am Forever Canadian. But here was are, and any of us that haven't signed the petition need to go sign the petition. And we need to heal our province by booting the UCP, and addressing the propaganda poisoning problem.

Great post

I'm just replying to make it easier to find and reread before I go to the next family gathering

And if Dani Alberta is reading this, my family has been here longer than Alberta has been a province. My 2 daughters are in nursing at the U of A, they're both looking to leave Alberta because of the anti-science, anti-trans, book banning nonsense.

Why work in a province where the government isn't committed to science based health care?

I hesitate to say this and come across as an asshat, but my son is gifted in STEM, and he's planning on leaving the province next year for university and never coming back. An anti-science government pushes away talent needed for a modern economy.

I'll stay here and fight, but my kids are moving somewhere that embraces the traditional Canadian values of the 20th century. Not UCP Maple MAGA nonsense

[Geraldsh]

Originally Posted by Plett25

Great post

I'm just replying to make it easier to find and reread before I go to the next family gathering

And if Dani Alberta is reading this, my family has been here longer than Alberta has been a province. My 2 daughters are in nursing at the U of A, they're both looking to leave Alberta because of the anti-science, anti-trans, book banning nonsense.

Why work in a province where the government isn't committed to science based health care?

I hesitate to say this and come across as an asshat, but my son is gifted in STEM, and he's planning on leaving the province next year for university and never coming back. An anti-science government pushes away talent needed for a modern economy.

I'll stay here and fight, but my kids are moving somewhere that embraces the traditional Canadian values of the 20th century. Not UCP Maple MAGA nonsense

Good for them for planning to improve their lives. We can only hope they remain in Canada.

[Amethyst]

Originally Posted by Julio

I see McMahon is up on the list for tomorrow.

Yes, volunteers will be there collecting signatures and then Edmonton volunteers will be collecting signatures in Edmonton next week, to see which group can collect the most.

If you're going to the game, you know what to do...