The Darryl Sutter effect: Assessing the aftermath

[Fighting Banana Slug]

Originally Posted by FormerPresJamesTaylor

No, I already said he deserved to be turfed.

Great stuff.

[Oil Stain]

Originally Posted by Sandman

Gotta disagree with you, gvitaly. Sutter was coaching last year like he had a team that he didn’t believe in, and was trying to make them overachieve. The system was tweaked on both sides of the puck, with an emphasis on volume of shots, which he employed because he stated that we lost 2 40 goal scorers, and didn’t have the offensive talent anymore. He was competing to “squeak” in.

Sutter has always been a shot volume coach.

Look at the results compared to then rest of the league for most 5v5 shot attempts in LA and CGY:

2012-5th
2013-7th(Lockout shortened)
2014-4th
2015-5th
2016-1st
2017-1st
2021-9th(covid shortened)
2022-2nd
2023-2nd

And Sutter has always done stuff like play grinders too high in the line up, and has limited star players icetime, and put out no skill guys on the PP, and ignored 3v3 and shootouts.

The Sutter philosophy is that no player is bigger than the team, everyone works hard, and everyone commits to defence. If he feels the higher skilled guys aren't working as hard as he wants then he sits them and pushes the grinders to the front. It's a button he pushes. You can find interviews with former players online about it.

Sutter's system and style of play is great. High correlation with winning if you can play the Sutter style. The downside is that its not fun, especially for the star players (The ones without high work rate anyways), and its probably pretty exhausting. I think its pretty tough to motivate the players to commit to that style for multiple years.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by FormerPresJamesTaylor

Well not in Chicago, where he stepped down, and not in San Jose, where he was fired after after making the playoffs five years in a row, not in Calgary where he stepped down. But he certainly wore out his welcome with the Kings, after winning two cups and in Calgary the second time.

There certainly is an endless amount of revisionist history in your post. Most coaches wear out their welcome; Sutter's only true failure was his second stint in Calgary, where he won coach of the year then the team imploded going into the next season.

Sutter deserved to be fired here but we're seeing some weird things thrown around the last two days. Jiri might have some inside info regarding support staff but Textcritic blinding parroting him and you revising history is just utterly bizarre.

Sutter wore out his welcome in Chicago, San Jose, and Calgary the first time (as coach)?

News to me, news to everyone.

Talk to some Sharks he coached - especially Selanne. They quit on him in 02. Does any of this sound familiar, from a 2002 story (when behind the scenes stuff was way less talked about)?:

“Sutter stresses a disciplined, two-way brand of hockey that didn't make much use of star goal-scorer Teemu Selanne last season, and most of the Sharks' younger players have taken several years to develop into contributors under Sutter's veteran-oriented lead. In particular, Sutter's constant criticism of defenseman Jeff Jillson this season might have eroded the second-year pro's confidence. Sutter's flinty demeanor also made him a fairly unapproachable leadership figure”

Bill Houlder liked Sutter. And he still talks about how Sutter would rip into them.

[Rutuu]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

Now, what was the one constant that caused/led to those things?

We find out this year. Its going to be fun.

Just to hedge, a lot of folks on here should look into getting a ski pass.

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by Snuffleupagus

The Chucky and Johnny show got him the Jack Adams

And Markstrom.

There's a old saying: show me a good coach, and I'll show you a good goalie.

(not taking anything away from Sutter, here, just saying)

[Mr.Coffee]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

And Markstrom.

There's a old saying: show me a good coach, and I'll show you a good goalie.

(not taking anything away from Sutter, here, just saying)

110% agree with this. I wonder if you tracked Jack Adams winners to their starting goalies how close they align.

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by Rutuu

We find out this year. Its going to be fun.

Just to hedge, a lot of folks on here should look into getting a ski pass.

Oiler fan talking trash in pre-season... it's an annual rite!

[GioforPM]

I think Sutter is a great coach. He is just getting shorter and shorter tenures because he does have some holes in his approach and because players are getting less and less hesitant to voice displeasure and push back. I don't know about Chicago, but in SJ he came in guns blazing - but apparently they were kind of country clubbish and needed it. But it rubbed some skill vets like Selanne and some young guys the wrong way. Even there his style got them into the POs but they exited early. He had the same "4 lines" philosophy there and I read one complaint where, in the last minute of an elimination game, he had his 4th line out (on the basis they'd had a good game). As soon as he had a short term losing record they turfed him.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Mr.Coffee

110% agree with this. I wonder if you tracked Jack Adams winners to their starting goalies how close they align.

A lot of Jack Adams coach bad teams (it's sort of a "you did way better than expected" award) so on a bad team a goalie can make a huge difference.
Hartley had Ramo and Hiller playing .912 and .918 respectively when he won. The next year they played .909 and .879 and the Flames were out of the POs.

Even on non-bad teams: last year the Bruins were by no means a bad team, but they were certainly not as good as their record and a lot of that was Ullmark.

[rotten42]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

I think Sutter is a great coach. He is just getting shorter and shorter tenures because he does have some holes in his approach and because players are getting less and less hesitant to voice displeasure and push back. I don't know about Chicago, but in SJ he came in guns blazing - but apparently they were kind of country clubbish and needed it. But it rubbed some skill vets like Selanne and some young guys the wrong way. Even there his style got them into the POs but they exited early. He had the same "4 lines" philosophy there and I read one complaint where, in the last minute of an elimination game, he had his 4th line out (on the basis they'd had a good game). As soon as he had a short term losing record they turfed him.

The way I see it, players don't necessarily mind a trough coach. They do mind a tough coach that also is an a$$hole to them. Nobody likes working for those type of people no matter how much money they make.

[FormerPresJamesTaylor]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

Talk to some Sharks he coached - especially Selanne.

Okay I'll facetime Selanne later?

[blankall]

Originally Posted by Oil Stain

Sutter has always been a shot volume coach.

Look at the results compared to then rest of the league for most 5v5 shot attempts in LA and CGY:

2012-5th
2013-7th(Lockout shortened)
2014-4th
2015-5th
2016-1st
2017-1st
2021-9th(covid shortened)
2022-2nd
2023-2nd

And Sutter has always done stuff like play grinders too high in the line up, and has limited star players icetime, and put out no skill guys on the PP, and ignored 3v3 and shootouts.

The Sutter philosophy is that no player is bigger than the team, everyone works hard, and everyone commits to defence. If he feels the higher skilled guys aren't working as hard as he wants then he sits them and pushes the grinders to the front. It's a button he pushes. You can find interviews with former players online about it.

Sutter's system and style of play is great. High correlation with winning if you can play the Sutter style. The downside is that its not fun, especially for the star players (The ones without high work rate anyways), and its probably pretty exhausting. I think its pretty tough to motivate the players to commit to that style for multiple years.

I do think he deviated from that system in 2021/22. For whatever reason he let Gaudreau and Tkahcuk play their own game. It was more of a shot at previous coaches, who had separated the two. Sutter wanted to come in and show that he understood the team, and let those two play together and actually gave them all the best offensive opportunities. That change crashed and burned in the playoffs, and it was back to the old ways for 2022/23. Sucks to be Huberdeau.

[DoubleK]

Blaming Sutter is a mental trap for this group.

If they don't perform this year, what/who else are they going to blame?

The excuses tossed about have been Sutter, Tre and nobody wearing the C. Those have all been removed from the calculus this season.

It's time for these guys to man up or GTFO.

[blankall]

Originally Posted by DoubleK

Blaming Sutter is a mental trap for this group.

If they don't perform this year, what/who else are they going to blame?

The excuses tossed about have been Sutter, Tre and nobody wearing the C. Those have all been removed from the calculus this season.

It's time for these guys to man up or GTFO.

I don't think anyone disagrees. If Huberdeau again falls flat, it means that his acquisition and re-signing is likely one of this organizations greatest blunders. If Huberdeau stinks again, I'd put the Tkachuk trade up there with the Phaneuf trade, in terms of it being a total lost opportunity.

But yes, you're 100% correct. These guys are getting paid the big bucks to perform, and they haven't been so far. You do have to admit that Sutter's system was totally inflexible, and didn't allow several star players to play their game. The excuses are gone now though.

[Enoch Root]

Who has dismissed the players from responsibility?

[DoubleK]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

Who has dismissed the players from responsibility?

You've done a fair bit of that in this very thread.

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by DoubleK

You've done a fair bit of that in this very thread.

Please do go on...

[DoubleK]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

Please do go on...

You can read your own response to the chief.

I am now regretting responding to you. It's absolutely pointless.

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by DoubleK

You can read your own response to the chief.

I am now regretting responding to you. It's absolutely pointless.

My response to THeChief...

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

Now, what was the one constant that caused/led to those things?

Suggesting Sutter deserves blame does not absolve the players of blame. And that post was followed by this one (for those that thought I might be blaming everything on Sutter)...

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

So the players can have a bad season, but Sutter can't?

Blaming Sutter for everything is a bad take. But at the same time, absolving him of blame is an equally bad take.

Sutter was a huge problem last year. Not the only problem, but a big one

[Oil Stain]

Originally Posted by blankall

I do think he deviated from that system in 2021/22. For whatever reason he let Gaudreau and Tkahcuk play their own game. It was more of a shot at previous coaches, who had separated the two. Sutter wanted to come in and show that he understood the team, and let those two play together and actually gave them all the best offensive opportunities. That change crashed and burned in the playoffs, and it was back to the old ways for 2022/23. Sucks to be Huberdeau.

Did he deviate from his system in 21/22 or are people's perceptions of his coaching different based on the end results?

I mean Gaudreau and Tkachuk were only getting 18 minutes per night. They were getting around 52% of the offensive zone starts while the bottom six were in the 60% range. Contrast that to a team like Colorado where Mackinnon gets the most offensive zone starts every year.
I mean that top line in Calgary was collectively +180 or something, so it's kind of hard to say they weren't playing how Sutter wanted them to.

The next season Huberdeau and Kadri were getting a higher percentage of offensive starts. Seems to me that Sutter didn't trust them as much defensively, and their results say he wasn't wrong.