2023 Men's Rugby World Cup Thread

[Bagor]

Originally Posted by FireGilbert

It has always been tough for Australian Rugby to recruit players against League and Aussie Rules but in the past could attract enough talent with money, success, and the opportunity to travel to London, Paris, and Rome. Now there is very little hope. No idea how to fix this other than trying to copy Ireland.

How do you think they could copy Ireland?

I would argue that Ireland has as much if not far more competition for recruitment from Gaelic games as Australia does with league and rules.

Where I think the Northern hemisphere teams are starting to gain an advantage is the increasing strength of the leagues.

[Roughneck]

What exactly would one copy with Ireland? Ireland basically copied the NZ approach with provincial teams becoming the pro teams after they kind of screwed around for a while. It helped that this was already the traditional feeder path from grassroots to the national team. The club level teams didn't quite feel robbed the same way they did in other unions as club players being taken away by the rep level was just the way things always were. Sure the OBC would whine about how 'back in my day the rep players would still show up and play for the club games!' but the grassroots game through to the club level was probably the least affected in Ireland by the shift to professionalism compared to everywhere else. This seems to have really helped the IRFU focus resources very efficiently and has paid dividends with quality and depth the country has never seen before.
But the biggest thing is that Rugby League isn't something that the IRFU or Irish clubs need to compete with. There's just no presence. A quick look at the Ireland rugby league team, only one player is Irish born and the rest are all England and Australia born and trained. AFL and GAA aren't the thing siphoning players and attention away from union, it's League. And unfortunately that isn't something the ARU can copy from Ireland.

On a side note, there was even a time when there was talk about cutting Connaght in order to better concentrate the talent ('are there enough quality players in Ireland to field four competitive teams?') but instead they went the opposite route and increased funding and better directed how players would get used like the 'Leinster overflow' and a path to qualifying players which quickly turned them into an asset rather than a liability. The idea of Australian rugby being too thin for the number of teams might have some merit given how many players league might be responsible for taking away, but I think there's more to it than that when a player like Mack Hansen can go from being a bench player on the Brumbies, unsure if he was part of their future plans, to starting for Ireland within a year after being lured away by an Australian coach.

[undercoverbrother]

Originally Posted by Roughneck

What exactly would one copy with Ireland? Ireland basically copied the NZ approach with provincial teams becoming the pro teams after they kind of screwed around for a while. It helped that this was already the traditional feeder path from grassroots to the national team. The club level teams didn't quite feel robbed the same way they did in other unions as club players being taken away by the rep level was just the way things always were. Sure the OBC would whine about how 'back in my day the rep players would still show up and play for the club games!' but the grassroots game through to the club level was probably the least affected in Ireland by the shift to professionalism compared to everywhere else. This seems to have really helped the IRFU focus resources very efficiently and has paid dividends with quality and depth the country has never seen before.
But the biggest thing is that Rugby League isn't something that the IRFU or Irish clubs need to compete with. There's just no presence. A quick look at the Ireland rugby league team, only one player is Irish born and the rest are all England and Australia born and trained. AFL and GAA aren't the thing siphoning players and attention away from union, it's League. And unfortunately that isn't something the ARU can copy from Ireland.

On a side note, there was even a time when there was talk about cutting Connaght in order to better concentrate the talent ('are there enough quality players in Ireland to field four competitive teams?') but instead they went the opposite route and increased funding and better directed how players would get used like the 'Leinster overflow' and a path to qualifying players which quickly turned them into an asset rather than a liability. The idea of Australian rugby being too thin for the number of teams might have some merit given how many players league might be responsible for taking away, but I think there's more to it than that when a player like Mack Hansen can go from being a bench player on the Brumbies, unsure if he was part of their future plans, to starting for Ireland within a year after being lured away by an Australian coach.

Speaking of Connaght, Andy Friend is the type of fella the ARU should be looking at attracting to Eddie's soon to be vacated role.

[FireGilbert]

That Fiji Georgia game was something else. Pool C has been epic. Can get a much better finish than a crazy chase down the field with both teams collapsing in exhaustion.

[undercoverbrother]

Poor Poor Italy.


The Irish camp can't be to happy to have watched that game.

[Bagor]

Why wouldn't they be? It was a predictable mauling.

I would hope they're worrying about Scotland. They're not out of the group yet.

[undercoverbrother]

Originally Posted by Bagor

Why wouldn't they be? It was a predictable mauling.

.

Yeah I disagree, NZ is 4 ranked Italy is 11 ranked.

That result of the game was never in doubt, but there shouldn't have been that much of a difference. I was picking 50is to high teens.

That was a complete and utter pasting of Italy. It looked like 1987.

[Spurs]

Damn I was hoping for more from Scotland. Hopefully NZ can put up 70 next week on these losers.

[FireGilbert]

Disappointing tournament from Scotland. Knew they were a step below South Africa and Ireland but thought those games would at least be close. Anyways the Ireland/NZ and France/SA QFs should be epic.

Too bad Samoa couldn’t finish England. The Samoan coach is not happy accusing the refs of favouring teir 1 sides.

[Bagor]

Yeah. Nothing would unite the world more than the trash that is Engerland going home. Gotta feel for them. Despised at every turn.

NZ/Ire SA/FRA. No idea what's going to happen there..

[Spurs]

It is crazy that possibly the 2 best teams in the world are playing in the QF (France and SA) while the Wales-Whoever matchup will be such a dud.

At least NZ is on the other side of the bracket so there is still a chance at a good final but they did such a bad job of setting up the pools for this tournment.

[Bagor]

Been discussed ad nauseum.
4 best teams.

[FireGilbert]

Funny enough I was looking back on the 2015 Cup and the early pool draw was a controversy then too! Never change world rugby.

[FireGilbert]

I'm still salty at that Samoan yellow card. Would have loved to see the English upset.

Also feel a bit bad for Georgia. Every one of their games was competitive with them either leading or down by 1 score in the 2nd half and they couldn't convert any of those into wins.

[FireGilbert]

Wow congrats to Portugal on their first ever cup win!

Was a final kick in the nuts for Wallabies fans thinking they had a shot only for Fiji to grab that 1 bonus point to advance.

[Party Elephant]

Originally Posted by FireGilbert

Wow congrats to Portugal on their first ever cup win!

Was a final kick in the nuts for Wallabies fans thinking they had a shot only for Fiji to grab that 1 bonus point to advance.

I'm curious for your perspective on this. Most reports we get in NZ on the state of rugby union in Australia are that it's a dead man walking, nobody cares about it, all the fan support as well as the best athletes going to league and AFL. Are there die hard Wallabies fans out there still? Do regular people care? Are league fans celebrating the demise of union in Australia?

[undercoverbrother]

Japan & Argentina take a bow.

Amazing game

Both teams deserved to win

[FireGilbert]

Originally Posted by Party Elephant

I'm curious for your perspective on this. Most reports we get in NZ on the state of rugby union in Australia are that it's a dead man walking, nobody cares about it, all the fan support as well as the best athletes going to league and AFL. Are there die hard Wallabies fans out there still? Do regular people care? Are league fans celebrating the demise of union in Australia?

It’s been sad seeing the demise of Australian Rugby in past 14 years I have been in Australia. Still plenty of hardcore fans here but mostly limited to upper class suburbs in Sydney/Brisbane/Canberra and immigrants from Union playing nations.

Union has always had trouble attracting fans and players against League and AFL but in previous years stayed popular because they were a winning team in a prestigious international sport. Aussies love nothing more than jumping on a patriotic bandwagon. Now that the team is losing and the money is drying up it’s creating a feedback loop bleeding support.

While I’m sure there are some League supporters celebrating the demise of Union there is plenty of overlap in fans who enjoy any version of rugby. My boss is a huge fan of both Union and League for example. League is doing a much better job attracting new support through grass roots investment and actually having games available to all on free television.

Problem is the Australian boards were happy to keep the status quo of a private school pipeline supplemented by big money league converts while doing nothing to grow the game. For example a Samoan immigrant family living in a lower class Brisbane suburb won’t have any opportunities to play Union but could easily play League or AFL.

Australian rugby needs a major overhaul with a centralised approach dedicated to national team success and gaining grass roots support. Can see things getting worse before they get better…

[Spurs]

So is it access then or am I missing something with League because personally I find it boring and can't imagine how it is more attractive than Union. I understand if it is a case that you can't make it in Union so go to League but as the more attractive option that doesn't make sense.

Although maybe I am alone on those thoughts and missing something that makes League interesting or fun. I also realize that growing up mainly in Canada that my access to League has been very limited.

[FireGilbert]

Originally Posted by Spurs

So is it access then or am I missing something with League because personally I find it boring and can't imagine how it is more attractive than Union. I understand if it is a case that you can't make it in Union so go to League but as the more attractive option that doesn't make sense.

Although maybe I am alone on those thoughts and missing something that makes League interesting or fun. I also realize that growing up mainly in Canada that my access to League has been very limited.

League is a simpler game that is easier for a new fan to understand. Goes by a philosophy that 90% of rucks, scrums, and line outs go to the attacking team so eliminate them and let the attacking team keep the ball. Fans no longer need to learn the intricacies of rucks, etc. while the game has less stoppages and more playing time over 80 minutes. The scoring rules also promote attacking play with going for tries prioritized over penalties and field goals.

Personally I find League can be repetitive and understand why most of the world save Northern England, two Australian states, and a few parts of the Pacific prefers Union. League is a lot of running up the middle for 3 plays, followed by running wide for 2 plays, followed by a kick, and repeat. Union on the other hand offers a variety of attacking options ranging from kicking on the first touch to grinding out meters through repeated recycling.

Definitely an attitude from Union supporters in Australia that Union is a cerebral game for intellectuals while League is a dumbed down version for the lower class masses. This certainly hasn't helped to grow the game beyond elite private schools. Goes back to the original League split in Northern England where League was played by the working class trying to made a living while Union was for upper class gentlemen playing for the love of the game.