The Flames Are Not Rebuilding: A Safe Space to Vent

[TheIronMaiden]

It was clear after the Flames hired a coach and GM internally that big changes were not the plan. The only reason we are getting the trades we are and hopefully will is because players are asking for trades.

[dino7c]

Originally Posted by TheIronMaiden

It was clear after the Flames hired a coach and GM internally that big changes were not the plan. The only reason we are getting the trades we are and hopefully will is because players are asking for trades.

All but Hanifin wanted to or want to sign

Flames are not agreeing to their terms...Toffoli wanted to sign long term in Calgary and then were only offering short

this is a MASSIVE difference, don't let the Oiler "Flames breaking" media fool you

Toffoli wanted a 6 year deal FFS

[Spurs]

Originally Posted by Hockey_Ninja

Oh trust me, I want a rebuild. But I’m just trying to be realistic about what it seems like Conroy is currently doing

I agree with that. Since it looks like the team is not going forward with the rebuild we need, bringing in young players to try and compete while actually finishing 9th-12th is better than bringing in vets or keeping the vets we have and finishing 9th-12th.

[Aarongavey]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

Pot, meet kettle.

I see those possibility as about as realistic as Conroy turning down firsts.

Not sure what Conroy was offered but I do appreciate how once any trade is done there is a crowd that immediately both downgrades the value of the asset traded while upselling what we got.

There were multiple posters in here calling Toffoli a 45-50 point guy for Christ sake. He has averaged 65 points per 82 games the last 3 years and 63 points per 82 games the last 4. Just shave off 30% of his expected point total and his value goes down.

Simultaneously folks are saying Yegor got 24 goals just a season ago. That season was the obvious outlier (at this stage) for what he has produced at the NHL level. Hopefully he gets back to and surpasses that level, but right now he looks like a 35-45 point guy.

Any trade can look pretty good if what you traded away gets downgraded by 30% from what is has been in recent history and what you traded for gets upgraded by 15% from what it has been in recent history.

[JohnnyB]

If the return they got from the Toffoli trade is indicative of the best they're going to find in the market when moving Lindholm, Hanifin, and Backlund, it will be a rebuild regardless of whether or not they want to use that term.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by cannon7

Let me break it down:

1. There are posters that are claiming a 1st wasn't on the table absent of evidence (other than point 2).

2. There are also posters (often the same ones) claiming this was Conroy's plan all along (not to take an all futures return).

3. I am saying point 2 doesn't negate 1 and in fact it is possible Conroy took the offer he did over a richer futures only offer. Again, absent of evidence. But I'm not making a definite claim, this is speculation.

4. You're claiming point 3 is unrealistic. But you're using point 2 to support point 1 and what I'm saying is point 2 can be true independently of point 1.

I'm not using any points. I'm saying the only evidence of what Conroy was offered and accepted is the actual deal. But your speculation is as realistic as mine. There's zero chance he was offered a 1st rounder for Toffoli and turned it down versus a 3rd + Sharangovich

[Spurs]

Originally Posted by JohnnyB

If the return they got from the Toffoli trade is indicative of the best they're going to find in the market when moving Lindholm, Hanifin, and Backlund, it will be a rebuild regardless of whether or not they want to use that term.

The rebuild is coming at some point no matter what they want. They don't have the talent on the NHL or the young prospects coming through the system to fix the issues.

The question is how long do they fight it and how much do they work to try and maximize the return they can get for the pieces they have to try and shorten the length and pain that will come from the rebuild.

[blender]

[QUOTE=cannon7;8758191]There are posters in this thread claiming this was Conroy's strategy all along. A little for now (Sharangovich), a little for later (3rd). It is entirely possible Conroy took this deal over a late first round pick. We don't actually know.[/QUOTE]

The world is full of stupid people.

[Redlan]

Safe place to vent…ok. I am going to preface this with “I am in Scotland staying at a distillery, drinking A LOT of whisky” there is even scotch in our room… so my give a #### is gone.

Anyone crying for a bare earth rebuild can go pound sand. Go on and wallow on some other team…maybe one of the other 31 teams that don’t win a cup and whine there. Suck it!

Safe place…I needed that. Thanks!

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by Redlan

Safe place to vent…ok. I am going to preface this with “I am in Scotland staying at a distillery, drinking A LOT of whisky” there is even scotch in our room… so my give a #### is gone.

Anyone crying for a bare earth rebuild can go pound sand. Go on and wallow on some other team…maybe one of the other 31 teams that don’t win a cup and whine there. Suck it!

Safe place…I needed that. Thanks!

Slainte Mhath!

[kehatch]

We may be out of options. Great teams have one (prefer two) great centres, one (prefer two) great D, a strong goalie, and scoring wingers.

The Flames didn't win the draft lottery and they aren't a marquee free agent destination. But we did okay due to strong drafting and some smart moves. Monahan/Bennett/Backlund down the middle, Giordano/Brodie/Anderson at D, and Gaudreau/Tkachuk on the wing. Treliving was able to fill in the gaps with Lindholm, Hanafin, and Markstrom.

Unfortunately, we lost players. Giordano to age/expansion, Brodie to trade, Gaudreau to UFA, Tkachuk refused to sign, Bennett to trade, Monahan to injury, etc. Treliving pulled wizardry to replace some of those guys (Tanev, Kadri, Huberdeau), but the wheels came off last year.

Now we are facing the loss of Lindholm, Hanafin, Backlund, and Tanev. Either via trade or free agency. We don't have players in the system to replace them directly, and we can't afford futures to replace them in trade. Hopefully Huberdeau and Kadri rebound, but those guys are in their 30s and aren't solving the exodus.

IF Lindholm and Backlund sign an extension then MAYBE we can limp on as a marginal team. Otherwise the Flames are in a rebuild. Either voluntarily by capitalizing on assets, or involuntarily when we can't complete.

[madmike]

The Flames may not intentionally tank, but if they keep replacing good players with mediocre players, they'll naturally fall down the standings. They'll be in rebuild mode, whether they want to be or not.

[Boreal]

Originally Posted by kehatch

We may be out of options. Great teams have one (prefer two) great centres, one (prefer two) great D, a strong goalie, and scoring wingers.

The Flames didn't win the draft lottery and they aren't a marquee free agent destination. But we did okay due to strong drafting and some smart moves. Monahan/Bennett/Backlund down the middle, Giordano/Brodie/Anderson at D, and Gaudreau/Tkachuk on the wing. Treliving was able to fill in the gaps with Lindholm, Hanafin, and Markstrom.

Unfortunately, we lost players. Giordano to age/expansion, Brodie to trade, Gaudreau to UFA, Tkachuk refused to sign, Bennett to trade, Monahan to injury, etc. Treliving pulled wizardry to replace some of those guys (Tanev, Kadri, Huberdeau), but the wheels came off last year.

Now we are facing the loss of Lindholm, Hanafin, Backlund, and Tanev. Either via trade or free agency. We don't have players in the system to replace them directly, and we can't afford futures to replace them in trade. Hopefully Huberdeau and Kadri rebound, but those guys are in their 30s and aren't solving the exodus.

IF Lindholm and Backlund sign an extension then MAYBE we can limp on as a marginal team. Otherwise the Flames are in a rebuild. Either voluntarily by capitalizing on assets, or involuntarily when we can't complete.

Not really disagreeing, but lots of things are beyond the oversimplified narrative hockey media sells.

The Flames were also close to diving Panarin before

The way the game has changed, if a team have have 2 elite defenders/pairing that can make and dismantle plays it’s more important that having elite centres. This isn’t my opinion either, it’s Scotty Bowman’s. He mentioned it in the Ken Dryden book, the game is controlled by D.

Dmen are also harder to project. Which is why they can slip in drafts.

[klikitiklik]

nm

[Hot_Flatus]

Originally Posted by JohnnyB

If the return they got from the Toffoli trade is indicative of the best they're going to find in the market when moving Lindholm, Hanifin, and Backlund, it will be a rebuild regardless of whether or not they want to use that term.

At this point I just don't see how you go into the next season with at least 3 significant players that still don't want to be here beyond these current contracts. It will be a complete failure if this team doesn't move at least Hanifin and Lindholm out before free agency.

It's not good for the room and it certainly isn't good for the potential return you are going to get. Either the Flames will stink and you're getting late first round picks at the deadline (which amount to something like a 1/5 long shot at anything) or the team is in a playoff spot and unwilling to deal.

[TheIronMaiden]

They have until the deadline to trade guys, unless you know there is a long shot that we make the playoffs, but lets be honest the Flames are shaping up to be a bottom 10 team no matter what.

My point of view is that 2024 draft is the true rebuild draft, or at least our next big chance in the lottery.

[CroFlames]

I think we should rebuild. We missed the playoffs with a veteran laden team. Do we realistically expect a better result, now that 73 point Toffoli is gone? Backlund won't be repeating his best year ever.

I wish the owner would be honest with himself and admit that the 9-year Brad plan failed. It's time to start over. You don't win with a group like ours.

We had a 4th, a 6th, and 6th OA plus a 104th OA homerun pick. That group didn't get it done, for a bunch of different reasons, and some weren't the Flames fault. Now their all gone. Johnny and Tkachuk should have been traded for picks, and that shoulda touched off the rebuild.

It might be too late, but it is time we sacrifice the next 3-5 years and draft top 5 a few times. You don't win Cups without top 5 picks.