No; More Canada Day Fireworks!!

[Hack&Lube]

Originally Posted by Sliver

Is it a mystery, though? My understanding is the church ripped indigenous children away from their parents in order to indoctrinate them into Christianity. Once in the schools, many of them were humiliated, taught a bunch of utter nonsense (kinda like what Christians continue to teach people today), and abuse and murder followed. That's what happened.

There should be reparations for those crimes as the trauma continues to reverberate through indigenous communities to this day.

But...we can't apologize forever without being forgiven (especially since it literally was nobody under a certain age...say 60?...who had anything to do with any of it). Nevertheless, I am willing to take responsibility for the past, but I don't think my children should have to and I don't think them apologizing for existing in Canada before each assembly is helping anything.

I'm at the stage where I want to know specifically what indigenous people want for us to bury the hatchet and move forward together. Onesie twosieing weird things like nonstop land acknowledgements, no fireworks, and every other measure is not going to get us there. If our apologies and our willingness to pay reasonable reparations are not acceptable, then let's just stop doing them. It's a waste of our energy and resources if there is no end and at some point we need to take a firm stand and draw the line that people born after a certain date are not obligated to apologize any longer.

That is why there are statutes of limitations for law. We have to focus on moving forward and making things better for the people and communities now. If we constantly looked backward for reparations then Mongolia should be held accountable for all the murder, rape, pillage, and conquered lands done by the the Khans. It is important to acknowledge and not whitewash the past though.

[Cappy]

Originally Posted by Hack&Lube

That is why there are statutes of limitations for law. We have to focus on moving forward and making things better for the people and communities now. If we constantly looked backward for reparations then Mongolia should be held accountable for all the murder, rape, pillage, and conquered lands done by the the Khans. It is important to acknowledge and not whitewash the past though.

To be fair... there is no statute of limitations for these things.

[rubecube]

Originally Posted by Cappy

To be fair... there is no statute of limitations for these things.

Also, with most statute of limitations, the discussion is generally something along the lines of "we tried to find the perpetrator but ultimately couldn't and now we can't prosecute." With the crimes against indigenous peoples, we know and knew who the perpetrators were and willfully chose not to pursue criminal charges against them.

It's an apples to oranges comparison.

[Sliver]

Originally Posted by rubecube

Where is this happening? I'm personally not a huge fan of territory acknowledgements for a number of reasons, but if you think they're being done as an apology then you're missing the point.

I'm not missing the point at all. There are layers of meaning in land acknowledgements and the layer that bothers me the most is the one where my kids need to implicitly apologize for existing on land that is not their own. This isn't their home; they're interlopers. They have to thank people from hundreds of years ago for "allowing" them on their land, even though that "permission" comes with a never-ending guilt trip. I think it's unhealthy for young people and certainly unfair.

Sorry, these are children. They shouldn't have to 'acknowledge' somebody else's former ownership of land just to exist.

[powderjunkie]

Well, this thread has gone...predictably.

[undercoverbrother]

Originally Posted by White Out 403

God, you're such a ####ing bigot.

[Sliver]

Originally Posted by Cappy

To be fair... there is no statute of limitations for these things.

Even if the murderers and rapists have been dead for decades/centuries?

[Leeman4Gilmour]

Originally Posted by Sliver

Is it a mystery, though? My understanding is the church ripped indigenous children away from their parents in order to indoctrinate them into Christianity. Once in the schools, many of them were humiliated, taught a bunch of utter nonsense (kinda like what Christians continue to teach people today), and abuse and murder followed. That's what happened.

There should be reparations for those crimes as the trauma continues to reverberate through indigenous communities to this day.

But...we can't apologize forever without being forgiven (especially since it literally was nobody under a certain age...say 60?...who had anything to do with any of it). Nevertheless, I am willing to take responsibility for the past, but I don't think my children should have to and I don't think them apologizing for existing in Canada before each assembly is helping anything.

I'm at the stage where I want to know specifically what indigenous people want for us to bury the hatchet and move forward together. Onesie twosieing weird things like nonstop land acknowledgements, no fireworks, and every other measure is not going to get us there. If our apologies and our willingness to pay reasonable reparations are not acceptable, then let's just stop doing them. It's a waste of our energy and resources if there is no end and at some point we need to take a firm stand and draw the line that people born after a certain date are not obligated to apologize any longer.

Not a lot of argument from me.

How you summarized "what happened" is what I understand as well. But, I think there's more questions to be answered on the specifics. Maybe the specifics aren't that important, but families like to know the who, what, when, and why when a family member dies. There's 100's of children found with none of that.

As to what the Indigenous specifically want. They published the 94 calls to action;

https://www2.gov.bc.ca/assets/gov/br...n_english2.pdf

The number of actions acted on is something like 13 out of 94. I might be misremembering, but it's a terribly low number.

Cancelling Canada Day fireworks wasn't one of the 94 though. I guess that's a bonus.

[undercoverbrother]

Originally Posted by Sliver

Even if the murderers and rapists have been dead for decades/centuries?

Some haven't though, IIRC the last school closed mid-1990's

This isn't ancient history for the Indigenous population and frankly if someone came into my house and stole my children I would never stop ####ing raging.

[jammies]

They can cancel Canada Day if I get TWO stat holiday days in lieu. Generic Day and Day Off Day - I believe slacking off is sacred to all cultures, so there should be universal buy-in.

[MarchHare]

Originally Posted by Sliver

I'm at the stage where I want to know specifically what indigenous people want for us to bury the hatchet and move forward together.

Conveniently, the information you seek is spelled out in precise detail in a document that should be read by every Canadian. Everything you want to know is right here starting on page 230 of the PDF (page number 223 in the document).

https://publications.gc.ca/collectio...6-2015-eng.pdf

[PeteMoss]

Why are we now blaming Indigenous people for the fireworks being cancelled now?

Go see the light show. I'm sure it will be just as exciting watching fireworks for the 400th time in your life.

[PeteMoss]

Originally Posted by Sliver

I'm not missing the point at all. There are layers of meaning in land acknowledgements and the layer that bothers me the most is the one where my kids need to implicitly apologize for existing on land that is not their own. This isn't their home; they're interlopers. They have to thank people from hundreds of years ago for "allowing" them on their land, even though that "permission" comes with a never-ending guilt trip. I think it's unhealthy for young people and certainly unfair.

Sorry, these are children. They shouldn't have to 'acknowledge' somebody else's former ownership of land just to exist.

We all used have to say the Lord's Prayer in school back in the day. We did it and got on with our day. Do you really think the kids care about saying the thing before an assembly?

It is a performative and useless thing - but its probably faster than saying some damn prayer or singing the national anthem each morning. We do lots of dumb performative things in our lives.

[blankall]

Originally Posted by Hack&Lube

That is why there are statutes of limitations for law. We have to focus on moving forward and making things better for the people and communities now. If we constantly looked backward for reparations then Mongolia should be held accountable for all the murder, rape, pillage, and conquered lands done by the the Khans. It is important to acknowledge and not whitewash the past though.

The difference is that the displacement of indigenous people in Canada is an ongoing act. If the Mongols continued to occupy a large group of people, then, yes, people would be calling for reparations.

That being said, cancelling fireworks is asinine and only going to lead to further divisions in our society. It's possible to simultaneously celebrate Canada and make reparations for awful things done in the founding of Canada.

[GirlySports]

Originally Posted by Hack&Lube

I'm pretty sure the Chinese invented fireworks to begin with.

Chinese invented gunpowder but decided to use it to make fireworks instead of you know... guns.

[GirlySports]

Originally Posted by PeteMoss

Why are we now blaming Indigenous people for the fireworks being cancelled now?

Go see the light show. I'm sure it will be just as exciting watching fireworks for the 400th time in your life.

Nobody is.

[Hot_Flatus]

Originally Posted by blankall

The difference is that the displacement of indigenous people in Canada is an ongoing act. If the Mongols continued to occupy a large group of people, then, yes, people would be calling for reparations.

That being said, cancelling fireworks is asinine and only going to lead to further divisions in our society. It's possible to simultaneously celebrate Canada and make reparations for awful things done in the founding of Canada.

How about we just acknowledge the wrongs that have happened and continue forward with members of all groups present and participating in the celebration with culturally appropriate displays?

This move to cancel fireworks celebrations is just dumb, and as you say, creates further division in society, and this "enhanced light show" just comes off as incredibly stupid. You either do something or you don't. It would be far more moving if it were a culturally inclusive event that communicated something far greater across the board than just shutting a portion of it down.

Whatever this is, is the exact opposite of moving forward as a collective society.

[blankall]

Originally Posted by Hot_Flatus

How about we just acknowledge the wrongs that have happened and continue forward with members of all groups present and participating in the celebration with culturally appropriate displays?

This move to cancel fireworks celebrations is just dumb, and as you say, creates further division in society, and this "enhanced light show" just comes off as incredibly stupid. You either do something or you don't. It would be far more moving if it were a culturally inclusive event that communicated something far greater across the board than just shutting a portion of it down.

Whatever this is, is the exact opposite of moving forward as a collective society.

I also don't really see how an enhanced light show is any less offensive than a fireworks show, if they are going by that logic. Perhaps the light show will be about indigenous culture and have a more somber tone?

It sounds to me like they don't want to deal with the hassle and NIMBY complaints of using actual fireworks, so instead they are going with some garbage light show and using indigenous suffering as an excuse to appease the NIMBYs.

[curves2000]

Certain things like what is being discussed above just happen more often and are allowed to happen in Canada because, well it's Canada.

You think anybody in America would cancel fireworks and have people advocate for the cancellation of 4th of July? LOL.

You think professionals from all sectors sit around and thank and acknowledge who's the former and or rightful owner of some land? You think Turkey's leaders are sitting around and thanking the Greeks for the stolen land? Are the Israeli's, Palestinian's etc? Are Russian's taking a moment of silence and offering reflection prior to events in Crimea? Is there any significant movement in Mexico to reclaim huge swaths of America and bring it back into the fold?

Is anybody renaming streets, bridges and national buildings in Europe or Asia or the middle east based upon previous issues and applying modern standards?

They may in super small amounts but this notion that this stuff is getting to be a little too much is very much rooted in North American culture.

[rubecube]

Originally Posted by Sliver

I'm not missing the point at all.

You say this, yet the next paragraph clearly demonstrates you don't understand it.

There are layers of meaning in land acknowledgements and the layer that bothers me the most is the one where my kids need to implicitly apologize for existing on land that is not their own.

This isn't implied by land acknowledgements. It's you attaching your own narratives to it.

This isn't their home; they're interlopers. They have to thank people from hundreds of years ago for "allowing" them on their land, even though that "permission" comes with a never-ending guilt trip.

This can vary from based on where the LA/TA is taking place but, in many circumstances, it's on unceded territory. I agree that "thanking" them is dumb, but probably for different reasons than you do. I think it's dumb because it's dumb to thank someone for something that was stolen from them in the first place. It'd be like my stealing my neighbour's TV and then thanking him for all the sports I get to watch on it.

That doesn't mean your kids should have to feel guilty. It's simply acknowledging the history of the land. It's also an ongoing occupation of these lands in many instances. Would you prefer a more sanitized version of history and current affairs for your kids?

I think it's unhealthy for young people and certainly unfair.

Sorry, these are children. They shouldn't have to 'acknowledge' somebody else's former ownership of land just to exist.

This sounds like the argument GOP parents make about not teaching the lasting impacts of slavery in schools because it makes the white kids feel guilty.