[GDT] Washington Capitals at Calgary Flames 8:00pm TV: SNW/E/O, CBC, TVAS2 - RADIO SN960

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by TheScorpion

Pelletier is one of four players from the 2019 first round who has not played an NHL game. Pretty sure all the other guys from that draft year came out of the covid era, too.

If you think I'm being over-dramatic ... well, I'm not. Dude wants a shot, bad, and he's earned it.

You saw the data I listed.

Not a huge push from the bottom of either of those drafts. Your number puts a guy with 1 game played into some sort of "made it!" category.

[TheScorpion]

Originally Posted by Bingo

You saw the data I listed.

Not a huge push from the bottom of either of those drafts. Your number puts a guy with 1 game played into some sort of "made it!" category.

And the guys with one game or similar (Holmstrom, Tracey, Poulin, Foote etc) have been far worse in the AHL. That's the kind of stuff a player sees and wonders how they're ahead.

Pelletier's AHL production is on par with or better than the likes of McMichael, Tomasino, Krebs, and Newhook. He's the outlier down there. The other three guys with zero games are nowhere close to the NHL.

[Paulie Walnuts]

Originally Posted by Bingo

How many years did you play in the show?

Because if the answer is zero you literally don't have a leg to stand on with those comments.

How many years did you play? Why does that even matter?

Can you tell me what it is that Lucic does in the room that is so important that he's irreplaceable?

[Mathgod]

Originally Posted by Bingo

The cap world has created cheap fourth lines that generally don't score.

That still doesn't mean a player should get a free pass for producing nothing offensively. If he doesn't contribute to the offense then he has to be above average defensively. Lucic is not.

287th out of 405 is well below average.

[Goriders]

It’s time for this team to get it’s collective head out of its rear end.

Forwards. Stop turning pucks over. Forecheck hard. Put the puck in the net

Defence. Stop turning pucks over. Eliminate defensive zone coverage errors.

Goalies. Stop giving up freebies.

Show up ready to play. Do your job. Stop making excuses. Or get ready to not make the playoffs.

[Gaskal]

Originally Posted by Paulie Walnuts

How many years did you play? Why does that even matter?

Can you tell me what it is that Lucic does in the room that is so important that he's irreplaceable?

Nuclear Deterrent!

It's like when everyone was like why isn't anyone fighting Big Ern.. like, who in their right mind would dare in the first place

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by TheScorpion

And the guys with one game or similar (Holmstrom, Tracey, Poulin, Foote etc) have been far worse in the AHL. That's the kind of stuff a player sees and wonders how they're ahead.

Pelletier's AHL production is on par with or better than the likes of McMichael, Tomasino, Krebs, and Newhook. He's the outlier down there. The other three guys with zero games are nowhere close to the NHL.

Aren't you kind of moving the goal posts?

First no picks in drafts 2018 with games played - lack of picks
Only x number with no games played - entire 2nd half of the draft is just breaking in
Now it's AHL stats to date?

It's these player's first seasons on the cusp. Some get in with opportunity, some don't. Some have crappy teams? Some have teams with injuries? Some have coaches that are less grumpy.

Trust me man ... I've seen this on this site for 24 years. Everyone wants the young guys to make it. When they finally get a look quite often they don't look great and then you see them in Europe or struggling as tweeners for the rest of their careers.

Hoping for all three of them; I've said that numerous time ... kind of wish for a minor injury to get Phillips a shot. But without that injury I don't really see a lot of space.

[Teroy]

Originally Posted by TheScorpion

Lucic has been awful. He's last on the team in every major statistical category. There's no justification for him still being in the lineup. I harbor no ill will against him whatsoever, but there's no reason why he should be escaping the rotation to the same extent as guys like Ritchie and Rooney when he's been worse than both of them.

Forget about your magical statistics. Open your eyes. He instills fear into the opposition with his hitting. Your bias is ridiculous.

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by Paulie Walnuts

How many years did you play? Why does that even matter?

Can you tell me what it is that Lucic does in the room that is so important that he's irreplaceable?

None!

But then you won't find posts from me explaining how little a dressing room presence in an NHL dressing room matters.

And your question? No I can't! I don't know! Only going by what I here, and I here it's quite important from coaches and players.

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by Mathgod

That still doesn't mean a player should get a free pass for producing nothing offensively. If he doesn't contribute to the offense then he has to be above average defensively. Lucic is not.

287th out of 405 is well below average.

You're really walking out your user name!

A hockey team has four lines.

One line is really good.

The second one still pretty damn good.

Then you have a checking line.

Then you have a fourth line.

A fourth liner shouldn't be competing with the average hockey player in the league who is a tweener between the second and third line. How could he?

Lucic is 331st in points/60 which is player #10 on the average NHL team. So he's actually competing just fine with the average NHL fourth liner.

[TheScorpion]

Originally Posted by Bingo

Aren't you kind of moving the goal posts?

First no picks in drafts 2018 with games played - lack of picks
Only x number with no games played - entire 2nd half of the draft is just breaking in
Now it's AHL stats to date?

It's these player's first seasons on the cusp. Some get in with opportunity, some don't. Some have crappy teams? Some have teams with injuries? Some have coaches that are less grumpy.

Trust me man ... I've seen this on this site for 24 years. Everyone wants the young guys to make it. When they finally get a look quite often they don't look great and then you see them in Europe or struggling as tweeners for the rest of their careers.

Hoping for all three of them; I've said that numerous time ... kind of wish for a minor injury to get Phillips a shot. But without that injury I don't really see a lot of space.

Ultimately it all comes back to the Flames being a bad drafting team, in that they don't have picks and they prioritize the wrong types of players on the floor. It's not so much moving the goalposts as it is there being a lot of different goalposts to point at. It's a multi-faceted problem — there's a lot of different things about their philosophy I disagree with.

But Jakob Pelletier's case for promotion is better than pretty much anybody else in the A right now. He's a first-round pick ... we're not talking Dustin Boyd here. Shouldn't need an injury to take both Lucic and Rooney out of the lineup.

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by TheScorpion

Ultimately it all comes back to the Flames being a bad drafting team, in that they don't have picks and they prioritize the wrong types of players on the floor. It's not so much moving the goalposts as it is there being a lot of different goalposts to point at. It's a multi-faceted problem — there's a lot of different things about their philosophy I disagree with.

But Jakob Pelletier's case for promotion is better than pretty much anybody else in the A right now. He's a first-round pick ... we're not talking Dustin Boyd here. Shouldn't need an injury to take both Lucic and Rooney out of the lineup.

No it's moving the goal posts.

Don't have picks isn't bad drafting. I think they've had excellent drafts in the current management era ... especially with the lack of picks.

Said drafting has two young forwards lighting up the AHL and creating half this argument.

Not sure why you'd even bring drafting into it, as it's actually counter your argument.

[TheScorpion]

It's a combination.

William Stromgren, Yan Kuznetsov, Cole Huckins, Cam Whynot, Jake Boltmann, Ilya Nikolayev ... clear instances of them drafting for size over skill in recent drafts, IMO. Those are all high picks (top-90) who did not profile particularly well when the Flames grabbed them, especially compared to guys they passed on.

They've drafted OK in later rounds but then those guys don't seem to have the pedigree to earn NHL promotions even when they rip it up in the A. So it's a little bit circular in that respect.

[bobbylouie]

Originally Posted by Bingo

Pelletier's draft

Only 14 total games played from players taken after him in the draft
Only two players past 50 games played in that draft after spot 15

Zary's draft

Only 30 total games played from players taken after him in the draft
Only three players past 50 games played in that draft after spot 15

Not sure where these numbers came from but unless I'm mis-reading your post, those numbers seem WAY off: What I see (as of Dec 2):


2019 Draft:

26) Jakob Pelletier - 0 games played

*Too many players to list individually, but over 700 NHL
games played by players chosen after Pelletier.

2020 Draft:

24) Connor Zary - 0 games played

25) Justin Barron (Colo) - 7 games played
26) Jack Neighbours (StL) - 22
27) Jacob Perreault (Ana) - 1
34) John Peterka (Buff) - 26
38) Thomas Bordeleau (SJose) - 8
61) Igor Sokolov - 8
75) Jean-Luc Foudy - 2
84) Nico Daws - 25
141) Isaak Phillips (Chic) - 4
167) Nils Aman (Colo) - 24
181) Cole Reinhart (Ottawa) - 1
201) Adam Raska (SJose) - 5
204) Ben McCartney (Ariz) - 2

I see 135 games, not 30.

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by TheScorpion

It's a combination.

William Stromgren, Yan Kuznetsov, Cole Huckins, Cam Whynot, Jake Boltmann, Ilya Nikolayev ... clear instances of them drafting for size over skill in recent drafts, IMO. Those are all high picks (top-90) who did not profile particularly well when the Flames grabbed them.

So today we have you criticizing them for drafting players that are too big at the same time Lanny is out hammering them for drafting players that are too small.

And you wonder why I'm shaking my head.

Coronato is 5.10
Jack Beck is 5.11
Connor Zary 6.0
Ryan Francis 5.10
Rory Kerins 5.10
Jacob Pelletier 5.09
Ilya Nikolaev 6.0
Dillon dube 5.11
Adam Fox 5.11

Monsters!

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by bobbylouie

Not sure where these numbers came from but unless I'm mis-reading your post, those numbers seem WAY off: What I see (as of Dec 2):


2019 Draft:

26) Jakob Pelletier - 0 games played

*Too many players to list individually, but over 700 NHL
games played by players chosen after Pelletier.

2020 Draft:

24) Connor Zary - 0 games played

25) Justin Barron (Colo) - 7 games played
26) Jack Neighbours (StL) - 22
27) Jacob Perreault (Ana) - 1
34) John Peterka (Buff) - 26
38) Thomas Bordeleau (SJose) - 8
61) Igor Sokolov - 8
75) Jean-Luc Foudy - 2
84) Nico Daws - 25
141) Isaak Phillips (Chic) - 4
167) Nils Aman (Colo) - 24
181) Cole Reinhart (Ottawa) - 1
201) Adam Raska (SJose) - 5
204) Ben McCartney (Ariz) - 2

I see 135 games, not 30.

I was summarizing first rounds, not entire drafts!

[Mathgod]

Originally Posted by Bingo

A fourth liner shouldn't be competing with the average hockey player in the league who is a tweener between the second and third line. How could he?

This is simply wrong. We're talking about xGA/60. As a fourth liner who doesn't score, you have one job and that's to keep the puck out of the net. You absolutely should be better in that metric than the majority of 1st/2nd/3rd liners in the NHL. What's more, 4th lines are not typically put out there vs opposing team's 1st lines. It's generally the job of the 3rd line to shut down the opposing team's 1st line.

Lucic is 331st in points/60 which is player #10 on the average NHL team. So he's actually competing just fine with the average NHL fourth liner.

Looch has just 2 points in his last 16 games, and one of those points was in a game vs the Kings where he played on the 2nd line. So he only has 1 actual point 4th-line point in the last 16 games.

[TheScorpion]

Originally Posted by Bingo

So today we have you criticizing them for drafting players that are too big at the same time Lanny is out hammering them for drafting players that are too small.

And you wonder why I'm shaking my head.

Coronato is 5.10
Jack Beck is 5.11
Connor Zary 6.0
Ryan Francis 5.10
Rory Kerins 5.10
Jacob Pelletier 5.09
Ilya Nikolaev 6.0
Dillon dube 5.11
Adam Fox 5.11

Monsters!

Well the answer is clearly that Lanny is wrong

I don't think they've exclusively drafted poorly but I think they have with a lot of their high-leverage picks. I have to give them credit for Coronato, though.

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by Mathgod

This is simply wrong. We're talking about xGA/60. As a fourth liner who doesn't score, you have one job and that's to keep the puck out of the net. You absolutely should be better in that metric than the majority of 1st/2nd/3rd liners in the NHL. What's more, 4th lines are not typically put out there vs opposing team's 1st lines. It's generally the job of the 3rd line to shut down the opposing team's 1st line.



Looch has just 2 points in his last 16 games, and one of those points was in a game vs the Kings where he played on the 2nd line. So he only has 1 point in the last 16 games actually playing on the 4th line.

No it isn't.

If said player was in the upper half of the league in xGA60 he's be a well paid shut down line winger, not a fourth liner.

[Mathgod]

Originally Posted by Bingo

No it isn't.

If said player was in the upper half of the league in xGA60 he's be a well paid shut down line winger, not a fourth liner.

lol, I guess Lewis is a well paid 3rd line shut down winger...

I guess we could go through and compare Lucic's numbers with numbers of 4th liners on contending teams... time consuming, and probably not going to change your mind anyway.