As an Albertan, would you EVER support seperation from Canada?

[Sparks]

You know, I think we should just keep on talking about the NEP. Of course it was brutal, but that was 25 years ago. I have a feeling that a few people will still be justifying breaking up our country because of the NEP in 2030.

As for the separation of Alberta, I'm really surprised by the number of people in this thread who clearly don't like our country. There are lots of places you guys could live if money is #1 in your minds, or if the other things Canada has to offer don't mesh with what you want in a country. That isn't the case for many Albertans though, and I hate when we're all painted with the "pro-separation, anti-federal government, conservative" brush.

But, I agree that Alberta should have more influence in Ottawa, because of the fiscal contributions we make to the federal government. I think it's criminal that we aren't given more. But break up our country? I might be being naiive but I don't see it coming to that.

[Resolute 14]

Originally Posted by Zarathustra

No, I wouldn't support separation.

Snakeeye, if you want to be taken seriously, you might want to spell separation correctly.

Spelling nazis are notiorious for their complete inability to debate and counter the arguments of others.

If you have something useful to add, noob, say it.

[Zarathustra]

Originally Posted by Snakeeye

Spelling nazis are notiorious for their complete inability to debate and counter the arguments of others.

If you have something useful to add, noob, say it.

And now I see the strong argument for separation. You are a great voice for the separatist group. Nothing like fighting for an ideal that you don't even know how to spell.

Idiocy.

[CaramonLS]

Originally Posted by Zarathustra

And now I see the strong argument for separation. You are a great voice for the separatist group. Nothing like fighting for an ideal that you don't even know how to spell.

Idiocy.

You really don't need to act like a complete ###### when somebody misspells a word.

[Hakan]

If Alberta separated I am sure the US would love to make it the 51st state. Keep the Oil money, use the cash to subsidize healthcare and get equal representation in the US senate and Congress. US states have a pretty wide latitude in what they do with their own money. At a minimum the US would quickly recognize the government and have a draft NAFTA agreement in hand to keep the oil flowing to be signed by whoever was in charge.

There's a provision in the NAFTA agreement that all three original NAFTA signatories have a veto over the inclusion of new members. That means Alberta ain't getting into NAFTA.

Secondly, you say that the federal states have alot of provision over what they do with their own money. Fair enough, but if your arguing that somehow the American federal state is more decentralized that then Canadian federal state then that's just patently wrong. Canada is the most decentralized federal state in the world. So if Albertans are all in a hub about federal encroachment on their rights then the United States would be the LAST place you'd want to turn to.

Finally, to all the people advocating for seperation you shoudl read up a little about international trade, international security and international politics. Alberta would be bent over the proverbial barrel in all three categories if they attempted to become a sovereign state.

[Zarathustra]

Originally Posted by CaramonLS

You really don't need to act like a complete ###### when somebody misspells a word.

I answered the original question of the thread, and added that funny little peice after. I've noticed Snakeeye has been posting on a few forums that I also visit, and he has been fighting for separation, and yet misspells the word. You don't see any irony in this?

Anyway, here are my thoughts on the issue.

During the summer, the Alberta Separation Party, or whatever it's called, had a rally downtown. A bunch of obese middle-aged men were preaching to about 10 people. Didn't seem too popular.

There are a couple of reasons that the separation movement will generate very little popularity.

1.A significant percent of the population was born and raised out-of-province. The majority of these people have no interest in separation.

2.Immigration continues to rise and Calgary and Edmonton continue to grow in diversity. Immigrants moving to Alberta from India, China, Trinidad, or many other countries consider themselves Canadian first.

3.The generation of baby-boomers that endured the NEP era continue to grow old and eventually die. The new generation of Albertans are not that familiar with this era and don't loathe the government as their parents and grandparents once did.

Separation will not occur during our lifetime.

[Hakan]

Political Autonomy and the security of this province?

Security? You realize you'd have to pay for your own military now, you realize that all international security treaties signed by Canada are now null and void when it comes to a sovereign Alberta. You also realize that Alberta is a land locked nation surrounded by two countries, one of which you acrimoniously seperated from, the other who's only interest in you is for your oil. It's not exactly the rosiet picture, from a security standpoint. So either a), you become annexed by the United States and all that precious political autonomy is now totally gone or b) you remain independent and maintain your political autonomy while denying your national security.

Wake the **** up people.

[Hakan]

We've succeeded in spite of Canada for some time now. What makes you think that we would fail if we went our own way?

This is the most ignorant comment in this thread yet. Albertans sure aren't short of mindnumbing opinions.

You've succeeded in spite of Canada? Somehow implying that Canada isn't succeeding? Of course Canada has the best performing economy in the western world over the past 7 years on average. So, what exactly are you trying to say? That somehow the best performing economy is still holding you back? Or is success the ability to elect leaders that cheat at university and drunkenly berate homeless people?

[RougeUnderoos]

Originally Posted by Snakeeye

I just do not see what it is that we can only have if we are part of Canada.

And I don't see what it is that we can only have if we are not a part of Canada so I guess we are in the same boat.

I, like I'm sure the rest of you all did, said if Quebec really wants out, they really and honestly do, then sayonora. No sweet deals, no currency, no favored trade relationship, no nothing. No other provinces are going, we aren't your best buddy, things aren't going to be the same but you have your own flag, you are out. Get lost.

I don't see any reason to believe that things wouldn't be exactly that way if Alberta wanted to separate.

So we do separate and the rest of the country hates us. Yeah but who cares, we have the oil. We are surrounded on 3 sides by hostile neighbours? So what? We have the oil. But you gotta sell it to somebody, and I can see two options: be completely and utterly dependent on a foreign nation (Canada) to give us a nice friendly deal the day after we told them to eff off, or we can sell it to the Yanks for 5 bucks a barrel.

[FireFly]

The topic is confusing. The heading says 'Would I EVER support separation?' The poll says 'Should they separate?' While I do not think that Alberta should separate, I certainly agree with the tactic of threatening it. I mean, if QUebec can do it, why can't we? Until the feds stand up to Quebec and tell them that tactic won't work anymore, absolutely it makes a great tactic.

[FlamesAddiction]

Originally Posted by Thunderball

Yes. Especially if the Liberals win again.

Such a statement is anti-democratic.

Using threats against a county if the vote doesn't go your way... I think it's an insult to every Canadian who fought and died for this country.

[Zarathustra]

Originally Posted by FlamesAddiction

Such a statement is anti-democratic.

Using threats against a county if the vote doesn't go your way... I think it's an insult to every Canadian who fought and died for this country.

Hypocrisy is the common denominator among these separatists.

[Resolute 14]

Originally Posted by Hakan

This is the most ignorant comment in this thread yet. Albertans sure aren't short of mindnumbing opinions.

You've succeeded in spite of Canada? Somehow implying that Canada isn't succeeding? Of course Canada has the best performing economy in the western world over the past 7 years on average. So, what exactly are you trying to say? That somehow the best performing economy is still holding you back? Or is success the ability to elect leaders that cheat at university and drunkenly berate homeless people?

Not at all certian where you got that implication from, so I'll just say it:

Alberta does not succeed because of Canada. Alberta succeeds because of Alberta. What exactly has Canada (or more specifically, Ottawa) done that has led to Alberta's success?

[Hakan]

Y'see Quebec has a couple of things going for it: notably a sea port or two, and a domestic manufacturing industry.

Alberta has oil but no where to sell it besides two customers. Not exactly a favourable market position to be in. Also all of their imports and exports would go through someone else's port. Not exactly great either. And really the economy isn't diversified at all meaning that you are much more sensitive to international trends. Mind you, being abundant in oil will shield the shocks, but what happens when it runs out, canola oil exporting?

[Hakan]

Alberta does not succeed because of Canada. Alberta succeeds because of Alberta. What exactly has Canada (or more specifically, Ottawa) done that has led to Alberta's success?

Are you for real? Seriously, do you actually believe this?

Sorry, I don't think this discussion can continue as we are obviously on two completely different planes here.

[Thunderball]

Originally Posted by FlamesAddiction

Such a statement is anti-democratic.

Using threats against a county if the vote doesn't go your way... I think it's an insult to every Canadian who fought and died for this country.

Not really... democracy doesn't work right now... you have a corrupt government thats stagnant and causing storm clouds to brew (the economist's words, not mine), and they'll win again cause "Stephen Harper has a hidden agenda" or some crap like that. I'm not saying vote Conservative, I'm saying for the good of the country, quit voting for a corrupt party long enough at least for them to fix their problems. As much as I hate the NDP, at least if they won, it would show that people in the east aren't a bunch of morons and recognize crooks and the need for change. I mean, vote Green even, just dont vote Liberal!

If people east of Manitoba can't recognize this, then something drastic needs to be done. Clearly, the change isn't coming from them. Nothing hypocritical about it...

[Resolute 14]

Originally Posted by RougeUnderoos

And I don't see what it is that we can only have if we are not a part of Canada so I guess we are in the same boat.

I, like I'm sure the rest of you all did, said if Quebec really wants out, they really and honestly do, then sayonora. No sweet deals, no currency, no favored trade relationship, no nothing. No other provinces are going, we aren't your best buddy, things aren't going to be the same but you have your own flag, you are out. Get lost.

I don't see any reason to believe that things wouldn't be exactly that way if Alberta wanted to separate.

So we do separate and the rest of the country hates us. Yeah but who cares, we have the oil. We are surrounded on 3 sides by hostile neighbours? So what? We have the oil. But you gotta sell it to somebody, and I can see two options: be completely and utterly dependent on a foreign nation (Canada) to give us a nice friendly deal the day after we told them to eff off, or we can sell it to the Yanks for 5 bucks a barrel.

It's already been mentioned: We would gain control of our affairs.

And yes, I agree, no sweet deals. Except that unlike Quebec, Alberta doesnt need the sweet deals to sustain ourselves. We certantly would need to trade for many things, but we have things (ie: oil) to trade, and could make it work.

As far as acrimony goes, do you really think Canada would be so angry that it would refuse to deal with us? The only thing that changes is that we would be dealing with a Canada that doesnt think much of us as a seperate nation rather than a Canada that doesnt think much of us as the nation we are theoretically a part of.

There are lots of nations that want oil, and not at the ridiculously stupid $5 a barrel suggestion. Alberta could thrive beyond Canada's wildest dreams if it managed it's resources well.

Of course, that is an argument that should not have to be made, but we can thank the rest of Canada for that.

[Cheese]

Originally Posted by Thunderball

Firstly... Alberta would be able to lure businesses away from Canada and the US with disgusting low taxes on corporations because of oil royalties... eventually, (assuming a properly managed country), oil and gas would slowly be phased out by banking, aerospace, computers, biotech, manufacturing, and most importantly, new sources of energy. Who else but the big oil companies are going to have the financial capital to fund new energy initiatives, *cough* BP... beyond petroleum *cough*

Secondly, the billions in the fund would grow to hundreds of billions during the life of the oilpatch, and one would essentially be able to live off the interest (see Norway). It wouldn't be spent.

Thirdly, harbors are increasingly irrelevant in an air freight world. Plus, what would stop Alberta from making a deal with BC or even the US if it was deemed necessary to have access to one. Luxembourg has no port and its one of the richest countries in the world.

Fourthly, CP is an Alberta company. Since the Alberta leg is crucial to Canada's rail system, I suspect a deal would be reached allowing both sides to freely traverse the other's territory. BC would leave confederation if it didn't happen.

Lastly, 100 years of BS have lead people to want separation cause its assumed that its time for the last resort since nothing else works. Alberta should not have to change for Canada, especially since it foots the bill for it. Its impossible to change a system that the majority either likes, or is ambivalent to.

If you think that Alberta could negotiate any of the above without a price...a BIG price...I think you need to rethink your plan.
This entire post...and those before it are all about the fact that the "majority" of people in Canada...yes Canada the country, not Toronto...do not want right wing Conservative politics forced down their throat as it stands today. This is not about Alberta politics as much as you want to make it out to be.

[Resolute 14]

Zarathustra - you really need to look up the meaning of the words you are using.

How exactly is misspelling one word an irony when it comes to talking about separation?

Also, how is it hypocritical for a person to support seperation if elections continue to go against them? It would be hypocritical to argue that Canada is divisible, but that the province that wishes to divide is not.

I've also noticed that you are very liberal with negative stereotypes and attacks. You are quite the little bigot, arent you?

[FlamesAddiction]

Originally Posted by Tron_fdc

I was chatting with a fellow who used to be in the Military and served in Bosnia, and he said that the split in their country happened much like what is happening in ours. Obviously he wasn't predicting genocide, but his comments were along the lines of "used to be an advanced, industrialized, civil country when one day one faction decided it wanted more rights than the other". In our case you have Quebec, who wants to seperate, wants certain recognotions, and wants to take certain things with them. One of those things is the St Lawrence seaway (and you'll have to forgive my lack of seafaring knowledge in Ontario/Quebec) but apparently there are quite a few ships that use this route to get into the Hudson Bay. It's apparently a MAJOR issue, as the owner of said seaway could easily tax any vessel using it, and could raise some pretty major cash by doing so. That said, who knows what people are willing to go to war over....

Then you have Alberta.......major resources, and in the minds of many they're worth fighting over. Realistic? Sure. Likely? Probably not.

Nothing against your friend because I really respect what he does, but the situation in Bosnia was not much like the situation here.

1) The biggest thing about Bosnia is that there is a 900+ year history of religious competition/turmoil in that area. Religion is by far the biggest cause of problems in the world. Canada does not really have that. The troubles in Bosnia trace all the way back to the time of the Great Schism and the Turkish invasions, and recent fundamentalism. It's not a resource of land based conflict in it's roots.

2) They had some of the fiercest and bloodiest fight in both World Wars. Things people don't easily forget.

3) They had suffered through dictators and nationalist leaders. They were actually oppressed. In Canada, when people talk about oppression, they really have no idea what it means. In Bosnia during the past 100 years, they had communist and fascist elements that make our political parties appear as best friends. We're talking about leaders who would seriously subjucate and marginalize people based on ethnicity, religion, and social standing.

4) Forced repropiation of land and resettlement of people that created ethnic enclaves.

Now in Canada, we have:

1) Petty squabling over natural resource revenues and how our taxes are spent.

The fact that some people can toss around the notion of 'separation' over these issues, shows just how high our expectations are because of how easy we have it.

The issues people yell about here exist in nearly every country.