Rumor: Management change

[GreenLantern2814]

Originally Posted by taxbuster

Don't disagree - but what he doesn't seem to do is risk "overpaying" (really the optics of being thought to have overpaid) for a player who may well help the team and then settles for something...else. That's the only explanation I can come up with for all the "Well, we were in on so-and-so, but ....".

Bang on.

Treliving is the sort of guy who’ll spend $60k on a loaded up Buick, but balks at the $75-80k required to get into something that’s actually good.

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by taxbuster

... That's the only explanation I can come up with for all the "Well, we were in on so-and-so, but ....".

Not the only explanation. One of those trades was kyboshed by a NTC, and another one fell through because of an administrative(?) error at some point in the transaction.


Sent from my SM-G960W using Tapatalk

[oldschoolcalgary]

Originally Posted by powderjunkie

No, but at least once.

STL is the closest thing to an exception with Erik Johnson being 13 years earlier, and only playing there for 3 years. Zach Sanford and 1/3 of the cost for B Schenn are what was left of that trade tree. Pietrangelo at 4, but their next highest picks were 13 and 14 (Eller and Schwartz).

TBL - I guess you could say they only had 2 - Hedman, since Stamkos was injured. But they turned 3OA Drouin into Sergachev...

LAK - 2, 4 (Hickey), 5 (Schenn --> Richards), and a bunch of 11s
BOS - 1*, 5--> 2 & 9 (in the year they won the cup), 7, 8. I don't think much was left from Thornton. Seguin was nice value on an ELC, but only played 10:30 and 13/25 PO games.

DET - built before the lockout
ANA - B Ryan wasn't yet on the roster that year. 5 (Chistov - bust), 7 (Lupul), 9 (Smid)...a few more top 10 picks further back including 2OA Tverdovsky in '94 (who helped them land Selanne 1.0)


It's not impossible, but it's pretty darn unlikely.

The last 12 cup winners all had the benefit from multiple top 4 picks in one form or another.

Boston had #2 Seguin, though its arguable how much he really helped.

Anaheim had Pronger and Niedermeyer, though neither were drafted by the ducks, they represent 2nd and 3rd OA talent.

[howard_the_duck]

Originally Posted by taxbuster

Don't disagree - but what he doesn't seem to do is risk "overpaying" (really the optics of being thought to have overpaid) for a player who may well help the team and then settles for something...else. That's the only explanation I can come up with for all the "Well, we were in on so-and-so, but ....".

He has also fallen in love with character, which has blinded some talent evaluation. Countless examples to reference where character has been criteria number one.

[powderjunkie]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

I don’t know that Treliving is unwilling to stake risks - he’s made some big trades and signings. Hamilton, Hamonic, Brouwer, Neal, Lindholm/Hanifin, Tanev, Markstrom - when he IDs a player he wants he seems to make an effort to get him and he is willing to pay a risky price. Even the trades that fell through - Kadri, Anderson, eg. he was willing to disrupt the core.

But the player evaluation for a lot of them sucked. Mainly Hamonic, Brouwer and Neal and some of the bottoms end of the roster.

It’s probably unfair to cast stones at Treliving for spending draft picks AND accuse him of being risk averse.

I'm not sure what the appropriate term would be, but he has only been willing to part with one significant piece (Hamilton), who was purchased on credit to begin with.

Aside of course from TDL sells on non-competitive years. Ferland, Baertchi, and Brodie* are the closest examples. 2 guys with 1 year to UFA and a failed development (who went on to be better than he was here).

I think there are a few simple logic fails:
- If we can't afford to remove any existing pieces, are we really that close?
- If nobody wants our pieces badly enough to pay for them, are they really that good?
- If we are only moving out assets that would be capped <1M for 3 yrs for more expensive guys, won't we run into cap trouble? (spoiler alert: yes).

Originally Posted by oldschoolcalgary

Boston had #2 Seguin, though its arguable how much he really helped.

Anaheim had Pronger and Niedermeyer, though neither were drafted by the ducks, they represent 2nd and 3rd OA talent.

STL had former 3OA Bouwmeester. If only Calgary were capable of acquiring that kind of player.

[InternationalVillager]

Originally Posted by GreenLantern2814

Bang on.

Treliving is the sort of guy who’ll spend $60k on a loaded up Buick, but balks at the $75-80k required to get into something that’s actually good.

Lol...

The number of people I know that wouldnt get a german car because it costs 10K more is nuts. They'd rather save 10K and get a fully loaded Infiniti. LOL!

[cannon7]

Originally Posted by TOfan

I think this is exactly what he did with Hamonic. He overpaid, knew he was doing so, and it blew up in his face. Next time, I’m guessing he’s going to be more selective in who he pursues.

If Treliving made bad deals like that 10-20% of the time, he'd be fine. Problem is, especially with UFAs, he's making bad deals 70-80% of the time. If the only good thing people can say about the GM is that he generally gets RFAs under reasonable contracts, you have a bad GM.

[oldschoolcalgary]

Originally Posted by powderjunkie

STL had former 3OA Bouwmeester. If only Calgary were capable of acquiring that kind of player.

can't win if you don't have talent around you.

Bouwmeester was with the Flames from 2009-2013 and didn't qualify for the playoffs all four years...

[Trolleydodger]

60 G could probably get you a pretty nice GNX.

[The Cobra]

Originally Posted by oldschoolcalgary

can't win if you don't have talent around you.

Bouwmeester was with the Flames from 2009-2013 and didn't qualify for the playoffs all four years...

They had 3 dman who would be Olympic staples.

Can’t believe they ever allowed a goal.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[TOfan]

Originally Posted by cannon7

If Treliving made bad deals like that 10-20% of the time, he'd be fine. Problem is, especially with UFAs, he's making bad deals 70-80% of the time. If the only good thing people can say about the GM is that he generally gets RFAs under reasonable contracts, you have a bad GM.

https://www.capfriendly.com/staff/brad-treliving

I would say he’s a lot closer to 50/50, which is about right for most GM’s when it comes to UFA contracts,

I think the bad ones stick out in people’s memories much more than the successes.

[InternationalVillager]

There is no such thing as overpaying for a player (UFA or otherwise) that actually contributes. Let's say you sell the farm for Eichel and he puts up performance of a game breaking 1C. I'm pretty sure people would get over the fact that Treliving paid so much for him.

It's when you overpay or pay up for UFA's like Brouwer, Neal and in trade like Hamonic. Those guys have no chance to contribute to make people forget their contracts or what we gave up. Those guys are role players. They're not elite players. They don't have the talent to make you forget the cost.

Taking a quick peek at the 2021 UFA class. There is no one in that class that you can overpay and KNOW that they have the talent to make you forget about the cost. I'm assuming that Landeskog is re-signed by the Avs. But also I don't think Landeskog produces nearly as much unless he plays with Mackinnon/Rantanen/Makar.....and the Flames do not have that kind of talent.

So go all in for Eichel and I would never fault the Flames. Ever. Just don't overpay for plugs/role players.

[Iggy Snipe]

I like Treliving, and I believe he put 110% into this franchise since the day he was hired.

If the Flames truly let him go, I don't think he will stay unemployed long.

That being said, I do think it is time to make a change. And why not now? The Flames have missed the playoffs, and could benefit from a fresh perspective and strategy going into the off season, where the Flames must capitalize on their assets/resign important pieces/expansion draft.

I am impartial. Keep Tree, or let him go, I just want to start seeing Calgary make the correct moves, and trend up.

[cannon7]

Originally Posted by TOfan

https://www.capfriendly.com/staff/brad-treliving

I would say he’s a lot closer to 50/50, which is about right for most GM’s when it comes to UFA contracts,

I think the bad ones stick out in people’s memories much more than the successes.

Excluding the players re-signed as pending UFAs such as Giordano and Backlund, the list of UFA signings is terrible. Even the players that weren't disasters still weren't that good: Hiller (one good year, one disaster), Ramo (average starter), Stone (fell off after being re-signed), Chad Johnson (had one good month?), Czarnik (one dimensional, AHL fodder), Prout (one dimensional, AHL fodder), Setoguchi (failed reclamation project), Vey (AHL fodder), Diaz (remember him?), etc. And it doesn't get much better after that. Sure there are circumstances outside of Treliving's control, such as Stone's health or Hiller's vertigo (or whatever that was). But I don't consider this a strong track record no matter how many of these deals you forgive.

[Iggy Snipe]

Stone was Calgarys best D man this season. He better be coming back on a 2 year deal to play bottom 6 minutes. SO good with these young kids. He plays the game the right way and makes it looks easy.

[Goriders]

Stone was definitely better than nesterov and valimaki

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by cannon7

Excluding the players re-signed as pending UFAs such as Giordano and Backlund, the list of UFA signings is terrible. Even the players that weren't disasters still weren't that good: Hiller (one good year, one disaster), Ramo (average starter), Stone (fell off after being re-signed), Chad Johnson (had one good month?), Czarnik (one dimensional, AHL fodder), Prout (one dimensional, AHL fodder), Setoguchi (failed reclamation project), Vey (AHL fodder), Diaz (remember him?), etc. And it doesn't get much better after that. Sure there are circumstances outside of Treliving's control, such as Stone's health or Hiller's vertigo (or whatever that was). But I don't consider this a strong track record no matter how many of these deals you forgive.

I mean, if you choose to simply ignore every one of Treliving's best UFA contracts, then yeah, it doesn't look good at all.

Sent from my SM-G960W using Tapatalk

[DeluxeMoustache]

Nm - duplicate

[DeluxeMoustache]

Originally Posted by Textcritic

I mean, if you choose to simply ignore every one of Treliving's best UFA contracts, then yeah, it doesn't look good at all.

Sent from my SM-G960W using Tapatalk

Here’s a reasonably complete list:

2014
Engelland 3 x 2.9
Hiller 2 x 4.5
Raymond 3 x 3.15

2015
Ramo 1 x 3.8
Derek Grant 1 x 700K
Frolik 5 x 4.3

2016
Troy Brouwer 4 x 4.5
Chad Johnson 1 x 1.7

2017
Stone 3 x 3.33
Versteeg 1 x 1.7
Marek Hrivik 1 x 650
Jagr!

2018
Neal 5 x 5.75
Ryan 3 x 3.125
Czarnik 2 x 1.25
Prout 1 x 800
Quine 1 x 700

2019
Rinaldo 1 x 700
Rieder 1 x 700
Stone 1 x 700
Talbot 1 x 2.75

2020
Markstrom 6 x 6
Tanev 4 x 4.5
Lievo 1 x 875
Nesterov 1 x 700
Simon 1 x 700
Nordstrom 1 x 700
Domingue 1 x 700
Robinson 1 x 700
Rinaldo 1 x 700


2021
Stone 1 x 700

Say you sort them in to good / neutral / not so good
What’re the ones you can make a case for being good?

Engelland (I liked it, it was criticized by many at the time)
Frolik (worked well with Backs for several years)
Ryan (a lot of people wondered why he tripled his salary here but turned out to be a dependable player, I think a bit buried at times unfortunately, so makes cap hit questionable)
Tanev (decent contract for a solid stay at home D capable of top matchups)
Talbot (good cap hit for a reasonably solid G, just a 1 yr deal and didn’t factor in to the team’s future)

Jagr - I think he made a difference and gave them leadership. He was a plus 6 or so, Johnny elevated, and I thought if he wasn’t injured he was a net positive. Since he didn’t finish the year, can’t necessarily include him. But it was awesome

So..
Engelland, Tanev and Frolik?

[Jiri Hrdina]

I feel like we have two threads now largely on the same topic. Shuttingt this one down and it can be picked up in the other thread