The fall of Monahan, and the fall of the Flames

[powderjunkie]

Originally Posted by New Era

Part of coaching is noticing trends and helping players make adjustments. Another part is building confidence and helping players find ways to excel. Whether that be through visualization or individual video sessions or individual training sessions, that is the job of the coach. Sometimes players games get a little bit off and they need a tweak. Monahan may not be aware he is double clutching, just like a golfer may not be aware they have developed an inside takeaway or flat finish to their swings.

Changes happen gradually and become unnoticeable to the athlete, which is why video review and skills check-ins become so valuable to coaches and players alike. I don't know how many times a film session helped my fielding and batting, and then later in another career my golf game. Coaches recognized these minor things and helped untrack a bad habit. Good coaches make players better all the time by helping them maintain their game and skillset. Bad coaches just get in your ear and blame and tell you to work harder. I've had both and I know who made me a better player at all levels. Many times the athlete doesn't know what is off and needs a second set of eyes. That is where the coach is invaluable to the player and the team. I don't believe that type of coach exists on our staff or has the influence they should.

These are all great points, but I'm not sure how much is specific to the head coach, nor how much skill-coaching is even possible in the midst of a compressed season. We hear lots about players having 'shooting coaches' in the off-season...a lot of that individual skill development is up to the players now.

Originally Posted by Heavy Jack

It’s why it’s hard to talk trade on the forums because our players are widely undervalued by our fans while seemingly players we’d hope to get are overvalued.

The Gaudreau for Konecny speculation is a great example; many posters have ya adding to that which to me is crazy for a number of reasons. Sure Konecny is a tad younger, is a RW and is signed for longer but Philly is the team that WANTS Gaudreau in this speculative transaction and it’s Gaudreau who is clearly the more elite talent versus Konecny but still it’s rarely seen that way by our fans here and lots of times the Flames are adding a Kylington or a high pick to ‘get the deal done’ in this speculations.

Monahan is a 2nd line Center on pretty much every single team in the league and is the top line Center for a good amount as well including ours. He is supremely undervalued and it’s honestly quite sad to see. I’d be disappointed if he netted anything less than a 1st + top prospect + solid roster player where as to CroFlames point it’s seems as though Monahan would be an after thought on anything involving him in a trade and not a centrepiece acquisition which is a shocking take.

Half the board thinks that's fair value, the other half doesn't. It's not particularly crazy. Personally, I'm not sure why PHI would do it.

Of course there will be some wildly silly proposals...most often it's because we're not experts on every other player in the league, or other teams' GMs/owners motivations.

[heep223]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

I don’t think anyone serious thought Monahan was better than Mackinnon - just an earlier bloomer. And when Bennett was drafted shortly afterward it was certainly believed he’d be the top centre over Monahan.

Point being, Monahan to me was a good player, and I like him still. I’d have put him right as a first line centre, but a pretty average one. And I didn’t see him getting better unless he handled D better, because he’d end up getting outmatched by his opposite number.

I don’t think “many NHL fans” give Monahan a second thought and certainly when you mention good (not elite) centres, he’s not a name which would come up at any point in his career, including his one PPG season

Monahan has more goals than Mackinnon since they were drafted. Obviously Mackinnon is a borderline franchise player now where Monahan is not.

Just throwing that out there, I was surprised by that stat.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by heep223

Monahan has more goals than Mackinnon since they were drafted. Obviously Mackinnon is a borderline franchise player now where Monahan is not.

Just throwing that out there, I was surprised by that stat.

That stat comes up quite a bit. Monahan built a huge lead while Mackinnon was finding his legs. And that was viewed as more of Mackinnon being a bit disappointing than Monahan being great. But let’s be honest - Mackinnon is in the top 5 Cs in the league. And he’s not really about goal scoring, he’s more about creating the conditions for goals to be scored.

I like Monahan - he’s lone of my favourite Flames and I defend him a lot here. I think he will regain his scoring touch. But I think expectations were overblown by fans. Not by management or fans outside this team. Just by anyone who thought he was a franchise centre.

[Classic_Sniper]

Originally Posted by heep223

Monahan has more goals than Mackinnon since they were drafted. Obviously Mackinnon is a borderline franchise player now where Monahan is not.

Just throwing that out there, I was surprised by that stat.

I don’t think it’s a surprise at all. Monahan’s a year older, he’s played more games. Also, Mackinnon not a goal scoring fiend, he’s really an underrated playmaker. He has nearly 100 more career assists than Monahan. I actually prefer centers who can distribute the puck, if Monahan was a better playmaker, maybe Neal would’ve worked out here. Maybe the Flames’ search for a right winger would finally be over.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Classic_Sniper

I don’t think it’s a surprise at all. Monahan’s a year older, he’s played more games. Also, Mackinnon not a goal scoring fiend, he’s really an underrated playmaker. He has nearly 100 more career assists than Monahan. I actually prefer centers who can distribute the puck, if Monahan was a better playmaker, maybe Neal would’ve worked out here. Maybe the Flames’ search for a right winger would finally be over.

Neal was never working out. If it was a case of “maybe he just needs to be fed pucks better” he’d still be here.

ETA: Mackinnon has 90 more points than Monahan, BTW, and only 2 less goals.

[powderjunkie]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

Neal was never working out. If it was a case of “maybe he just needs to be fed pucks better” he’d still be here.

ETA: Mackinnon has 90 more points than Monahan, BTW, and only 2 less goals.

NM 19 fewer total gp, too.

20g 54p in 40 playoff gp to SM's 10g 21p in 30gp..


Past 4 seasons: 238gp 119G 307p vs. 238gp 89G 206P.

[CroFlames]

Bringing MacKinnon into the conversation is basically useless.

This is a guy that is regularly talked about as the best F in the league. And he had a recurring role on TPB.

[Lanny_McDonald]

Originally Posted by CroFlames

Bringing MacKinnon into the conversation is basically useless.

This is a guy that is regularly talked about as the best F in the league. And he had a recurring role on TPB.

MacKinnon was a consensus 1st overall and was hyped as the next Sidney Crosby. So for him to turn into the level of player he has is not surprising. Should be pointed out that it also took the introduction of Mikko Rantanen to the mix for him to really take off. Monahan was in the next band of players, well behind MacKinnon, and this is where he has shaken out. When I hear that players like Bo Hovat have surpassed Monahan I realize how spoiled Flames fans have become.

[Classic_Sniper]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

Neal was never working out. If it was a case of “maybe he just needs to be fed pucks better” he’d still be here.

ETA: Mackinnon has 90 more points than Monahan, BTW, and only 2 less goals.

Right but I did say assists. Doing the math it looks like it’s 92 more assists and in 19 less games. The gap will likely continue to widen as Mackinnon continues to score at a 90 point clip.

I’m sure Neal had other problems here (personality, defense) that lead to Treliving shipping him after 1 year season. But the scouting staff in this organization really blew it with James Neal. He’s always needed a center who could distribute or play with pace to be productive. Monahan is not that guy, he’s more of a cerebral goal scorer like James Neal. Expecting Gaudreau to consistently make 50 foot passes from wing to wing through sticks and skates to set Neal up was just straight up silly.

[Classic_Sniper]

Originally Posted by CroFlames

Bringing MacKinnon into the conversation is basically useless.

This is a guy that is regularly talked about as the best F in the league. And he had a recurring role on TPB.

Very true.

If anything, it’s Bo Horvat who has now entered the conversation with his brilliant playoff performance last summer. I actually really his game and have often wondered what he would’ve looked like in Flames silks.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Classic_Sniper

Right but I did say assists. Doing the math it looks like it’s 92 more assists and in 19 less games. The gap will likely continue to widen as Mackinnon continues to score at a 90 point clip.

I’m sure Neal had other problems here (personality, defense) that lead to Treliving shipping him after 1 year season. But the scouting staff in this organization really blew it with James Neal. He’s always needed a center who could distribute or play with pace to be productive. Monahan is not that guy, he’s more of a cerebral goal scorer like James Neal. Expecting Gaudreau to consistently make 50 foot passes from wing to wing through sticks and skates to set Neal up was just straight up silly.

The issue with Neal was off ice. If it was just getting him a better C at feeding him he’d still be here, playing with Lindholm or maybe Backlund. Or with Monahan now that he’s an assist man. They’d have given him more than one year to improve (like they tried with Brouwer).

As it was, they didn’t have much choice. My complaint is that Treliving could have known but he just looked at Neal’s stats, it appears.

[FlamesAddiction]

Monahan has always been the same low-intensity guy. I don't hate him and he consistently puts up points, but he doesn't seem to get fired up. He's got one gear.

I am sure he hates losing, but it seems to get him down in the dumps rather than angry. To be fair, it was a similar criticism Iginla had early in his career. He didn't seem to hate losing enough to take a stand. Brian Sutter called him out for it I recall. Then he matured. He found that extra gear and the last thing the opposition wanted to do was trigger him.

I know it's not completely fair to compare Monahan to a sure fire HoF player, but I think we are seeing what separates an average star from a superstar.

I also wonder if he got too cozy with Gaudreau. Most of the time they are on the ice together, it looks like they are trying to be the Money-Johnny show. Anyone who plays right wing on that line probably feels like a 3rd wheel.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by FlamesAddiction

Monahan has always been the same low-intensity guy. I don't hate him and he consistently puts up points, but he doesn't seem to get fired up. He's got one gear.

I am sure he hates losing, but it seems to get him down in the dumps rather than angry. To be fair, it was a similar criticism Iginla had early in his career. He didn't seem to hate losing enough to take a stand. Brian Sutter called him out for it I recall. Then he matured. He found that extra gear and the last thing the opposition wanted to do was trigger him.

I know it's not completely fair to compare Monahan to a sure fire HoF player, but I think we are seeing what separates an average star from a superstar.

I also wonder if he got too cozy with Gaudreau. Most of the time they are on the ice together, it looks like they are trying to be the Money-Johnny show. Anyone who plays right wing on that line probably feels like a 3rd wheel.

They seemed to like Lindholm, Hudler and Ferland fine. I think with the right guy it will click.

I think Monahan cares - he wouldn’t have worked on his D and improved his board work this year otherwise. I think he wants to be a “roll up the sleeves” kind of guy rather than a “look how much I am trying” guy.

[Winsor_Pilates]

Originally Posted by New Era

MacKinnon was a consensus 1st overall and was hyped as the next Sidney Crosby. So for him to turn into the level of player he has is not surprising. Should be pointed out that it also took the introduction of Mikko Rantanen to the mix for him to really take off. Monahan was in the next band of players, well behind MacKinnon, and this is where he has shaken out. When I hear that players like Bo Hovat have surpassed Monahan I realize how spoiled Flames fans have become.

What do you mean?

[Lanny_McDonald]

Originally Posted by Winsor_Pilates

What do you mean?

https://forum.calgarypuck.com/showpo...6&postcount=92

"Monahan never became a 2way player and dare I say Horvat passed him"

https://forum.calgarypuck.com/showpo...&postcount=110

"If anything, it’s Bo Horvat who has now entered the conversation with his brilliant playoff performance last summer."

[Winsor_Pilates]

Originally Posted by New Era

https://forum.calgarypuck.com/showpo...6&postcount=92

"Monahan never became a 2way player and dare I say Horvat passed him"

https://forum.calgarypuck.com/showpo...&postcount=110

"If anything, it’s Bo Horvat who has now entered the conversation with his brilliant playoff performance last summer."

NM, I get what you were saying now.

I don't see anything wrong with these comments though, I'd take Horvat over Monahan every day of the week.

[Lanny_McDonald]

Originally Posted by Winsor_Pilates

Are you suggesting we're spoiled by having Monahan and making these comments? I genuinely wasn't sure what you meant.

I don't see anything wrong with these comments, I'd take Horvat over Monahan every day of the week.

[Winsor_Pilates]

Even Ignoring Monahan's struggles this season, looking back at last year.

Horvat 53 points in 69 games.
Monahan 48 point in 70 games.

That's without even considering the playoff performances, Horvat's faceoff % or leadershp in being a team captain.

It's gross that I have to make this argument, but I think every GM in the league would take Horvat.

[dammage79]

What an ungrateful and ridiculous fan base we have become.

Bunch of joy sucking bleeters.

[djsFlames]

Fall of 2018 and early 2019 Monahan was looking like an absolute STUD.

His best stretch of his career. I thought he would keep building on that offensive dominance with Gaudreau but they transformed into sheep after the All Star Break.

I have seen glimpses of that guy early this season but still waiting on him to string a lengthy period of great hockey together. He has it in him and thats what is frustrating.