TheAthletic: The dysfunctional Arizona Coyotes saga continues under Alex Meruelo

[Toonage]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

still better than the Saddledome that has nothing around it

Humpty's still across the tracks?

[devo22]

I'm still laughing at the sad attempt to discredit Katie Strang and the Trump like "response". What a PR tire fire.

[Matty81]

Originally Posted by Joborule

I think your two paragraphs contradict each other in non-traditional markets being successful. If that was truly the case, then hockey shouldn't be working in California either. But as you mentioned about Tampa Bay, if a franchise can be successful, it will generate support. And although Phoenix has largely been irrelevant for their entire history, it has produced an elite level hockey player.

But it definitely is a very uphill battle, and if you don't have a period of being a competitive team, you're SOL in being able to stay.

It just feels like at this point that Phoenix is just not going to work out, and it'll be moving to either Houston (they may like hockey more now because of their current weather) or Quebec City. After Seattle starts up, those two cities are next on the queue, with Kansas City being a wildcard I suppose.

Your second paragraph is it for me... its not totally impossible to succeed in a sunbelt market but it's such a long shot that it is foolhardy. And do believe that there are some places where there's a combination of hockey being so foreign and the market just not being large enough that there's literally zero chance of sustained success.

I think many Californians were brought to the game by Gretzky in the 90s which was pretty exceptional plus the population is so large having more ppl than all of Canada. Couple those first two factors with the Kings and Ducks winning cups and I don't think Florida, Arizona or North Carolina (or almost any other sunbelt markets) will ever recreate those three conditions,

Dallas/Texas I do find really interesting though and challenges my thinking, because while they've never really bottomed out, they are a team I'd expect to be right there in that group of bad markets that eventually go belly up, but they've maintained attendance - maybe because of the cup they won, population size and/or the market having more transplants because of the economy. It sticks out to me as the one anomaly outside California.

Vegas and Nashville will also be interesting long term when they go through periods of being bad too and the honeymoon phase ends. Vegas you'd think comp tickets and vacationers will prop them up regardless but the Preds weren't super healthy attendance wise before they got good, you wonder what the next valley will look like.

[greentree]

Originally Posted by Sidney Crosby's Hat

Their PR guy is Rich Nairn who's a pro's pro and has been around since the Winnipeg days. One of the best in the business.

Knowing that, this screams to me like Meurelo wrote this himself, or maybe his personal publicist.

No question this was directed by ownership, 100%.
And wow, Rich Nairn. Guy should have "long suffering" appended to his name. He could write a bestseller given the #$#@ he's seen in Phoenix.
Suggested title: Downward Desert Dog: My 25 seasons of NHL futility, by Rich "Long Suffering" Nairn

[Strange Brew]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

still better than the Saddledome that has nothing around it

You could drive around in a run down old car and accept it for what it is or drive around in some obnoxious new car designed by Homer Simpson.

[Jordan!]

Originally Posted by greentree

No question this was directed by ownership, 100%.
And wow, Rich Nairn. Guy should have "long suffering" appended to his name. He could write a bestseller given the #$#@ he's seen in Phoenix.
Suggested title: Downward Desert Dog: My 25 seasons of NHL futility, by Rich "Long Suffering" Nairn

He's seen it all, one of the only people left in the regime change

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by New Era

Just for comparison, from where, and when? I love it when the tourists come to town and tell me how easy it is to get around when they are traveling at less than peak time. I took a cab from a hotel right off the 101 and did the trip in 30 minutes in light traffic. Did I mention I did it at 3:00 in the afternoon? Phoenix has great roads, but when rush hour hits so does gridlock. Same trip between the hours of five and seven PM, when most residents would be traveling, is a gong show and adds 30-45 minutes to any trip, thanks to rush hour congestion. That is indicative of a city with 4.2 million people.

Scottsdale is hardly the measure that should be used to determine where the fans are coming from. Just like you shouldn't say that the commute from Mount Royal (the community) to the Saddledome is so quick that fans shouldn't complain about location of the building or support facilities. Most "fans" live in the 'burbs. That's your measuring post. Take into consideration the need to get home after work, get the kids, and then make the trek to the arena. Not as easy as suggested.

Other thing about Scottsdale to Glendale - Scottsdale covers a pretty massive area. It’s relatively easy to get to the arena from the north end by TPC or the Mayo. But if you are in the south, nearer to the aquarium etc it’s much farther and there’s Camelback mountain in the way so it’s not a direct trip.

The entertainment district around the arena is fine. It’s just out in the middle of nowhere - they put it in a concrete island with massive parking (for the football games). If the complaint is that it’s dead - that’s because the trip is long and there’s no transit. No one is going to the bar after a hockey game because you either have to drive or get an Uber or something.

The hockey team would do fine if the arena was better located, unless it’s now too late and people have given up on it.

[Jordan!]

Originally Posted by devo22

I'm still laughing at the sad attempt to discredit Katie Strang and the Trump like "response". What a PR tire fire.

Say what you want about all of this. The one thing Coyotes fans don't have a problem with is this bite back tact after being the target of most media outlets the past forever years.

[Weitz]

Originally Posted by Toonage

Humpty's still across the tracks?

Drove by and she gone!


You can go throw some dice at cowboys though!

[troutman]

Originally Posted by FlamesAddiction

TV market needs to be taken with a grain of salt though. Big picture, I get it. The higher the volume, the higher potential for finding new viewers. In the short term , the size of the TV isn't as important as affinity to the product in any given market. The NHL, by supporting Phoenix is thinking long term, as they should IMO.

Hockey Avidity is another way to measure markets. I've posted this before so it is dated (2015):

https://www.northernpolicy.ca/articl...arket-1747.asp

[bluejays]

Originally Posted by troutman

Hockey Avidity is another way to measure markets. I've posted this before so it is dated (2015):

https://www.northernpolicy.ca/articl...arket-1747.asp

That’s a really interesting graphic. I imagine you layer over the corporate support required for season ticket purchase requirements and those top potential markets are gone. Which doesn’t leave much for market expansion.

[Joborule]

I completely forgot that the 2nd Toronto team idea was a thing. Considering the points brought up about Quebec City here, I suppose that if there was to be an 8th NHL team, it makes more financial sense for it to be in the GTA area due to the crazy population and cooperate density. But the big hurdle is there even a price that can be afforded to pay off the Maple Leafs (and Sabers?) to dip into their market.

[CorsiHockeyLeague]

It's mostly the Leafs and potentially to some extent the Senators. There aren't a lot of non-expats who are crossing the border to go and support a new franchise in Ontario.

But yeah, the big hurdle is MLSE wanting to maintain a monopoly over southern Ontario NHL hockey. An expansion there would cost them millions upon millions not only in terms of revenue but even future franchise value. If it costs 650 million to expand to Seattle, it'd probably cost almost twice that in the GTA.

[GirlySports]

How are 67% of Calgarians Avid NHL fans? Those numbers are really really generous. Like saying "GO Flames!" once means you're avid NHL fan for life. Maybe own a pair of Flames mittens? I mean, 800,000 people in Calgary aren't watching NHL hockey every night.


At best, 10% of the population follow sports. Just do a quick poll around your workplace and see how much interest there is in the Flames? Every year my workplace allows employees to wear Flames jerseys to work (back when we could go to work) on Flames playoff game days and about 10% do.

[troutman]

Originally Posted by GirlySports

How are 67% of Calgarians Avid NHL fans? Those numbers are really really generous. Like saying "GO Flames!" once means you're avid NHL fan for life. Maybe own a pair of Flames mittens? I mean, 800,000 people in Calgary aren't watching NHL hockey every night.


At best, 10% of the population follow sports. Just do a quick poll around your workplace and see how much interest there is in the Flames? Every year my workplace allows employees to wear Flames jerseys to work (back when we could go to work) on Flames playoff game days and about 10% do.

It was a rough calculation to be sure. You think only 10% of the population follows sports? In my office of 10, I would say 7 watch sports regularly (including two women).

Using Google trends to gauge NHL avidity, statistician Nate Silver suggested fifteen possible markets for expansion or relocation. His methodology was problematic because his estimation of the number of NHL fans in a prospective market was based on the number of times the term “N.H.L.” was searched in Google.

I'm sure there is a better way to survey for this data. Even if the data is off by 20-30%, the main point still is relevant. Every market has a different number of "avid" hockey fans, and of course interest is much higher in Canadian cities.

Local TV Ratings in US cities (2019);
https://www.bizjournals.com/buffalo/...v-ratings.html

In some markets it is just "friends and family" watching.

[bluejays]

Originally Posted by CorsiHockeyLeague

It's mostly the Leafs and potentially to some extent the Senators. There aren't a lot of non-expats who are crossing the border to go and support a new franchise in Ontario.

But yeah, the big hurdle is MLSE wanting to maintain a monopoly over southern Ontario NHL hockey. An expansion there would cost them millions upon millions not only in terms of revenue but even future franchise value. If it costs 650 million to expand to Seattle, it'd probably cost almost twice that in the GTA.

I believe Richard Peddie a few years back, "dispelled" the rumor that the Leafs were holding back a second Toronto expansion team. He said the Leafs don't officially have a veto on such a thing (and neither do the Sabres). Now, there's the reality of influence specifically the Leafs have on the league, which he never touched on, which I could totally see them not wanting it to happen especially at the time when the Leafs were mediocre. Could you imagine a Markham team being better than the Leafs and winning it all ahead of them? I'm sure it'd piss off a bunch of the Leafs fans.


I'm sure Toronto has the corporate support to have two teams - the question is where. To me Kitchener/Waterloo doesn't have the corporate appeal and is too far outside the GTA to make it work, but I could see Markham working. Really an up and coming place in the downtown area as well. Too bad they had a convicted criminal in Graeme Roustan pushing for it a few years back with a very silly plan. Get someone legit to work with them and it could be a thing in a few years.

[GirlySports]

Originally Posted by troutman

It was a rough calculation to be sure. You think only 10% of the population follows sports? In my office of 10, I would say 7 watch sports regularly (including two women).
.

Yes. My estimate has always been 5-10%. Maybe it's the people I know but we're measuring "avid" sports fans. Attending games (when we could), buying subscriptions or magazines, listening to radio and watching games, buying merchandise, joining a hokey forum, even gambling.

What's an average national Saturday night game get? 2 million viewers on average? And that's the whole country.

[FlamesAddiction]

Originally Posted by GirlySports

How are 67% of Calgarians Avid NHL fans? Those numbers are really really generous. Like saying "GO Flames!" once means you're avid NHL fan for life. Maybe own a pair of Flames mittens? I mean, 800,000 people in Calgary aren't watching NHL hockey every night.


At best, 10% of the population follow sports. Just do a quick poll around your workplace and see how much interest there is in the Flames? Every year my workplace allows employees to wear Flames jerseys to work (back when we could go to work) on Flames playoff game days and about 10% do.

They are talking about media market and it is probably unwise to use media market to choose potential relocation cities. Sudbury-Thunder Bay, really? No one is driving 24 hours (round trip) to go see games live 41 times a year.

If being an avid fan means tuning in to games on TV often, then I can see 67% being a fair number for Calgary. Butts actually going in seats is a different beast though. It takes extra commitment for that, but you can probably reduce every market listed for that. Relative to each other, I can buy the argument they are making. They might jostle around a little, but I would bet not too much.

[Monahammer]

Originally Posted by transplant99

Canadians will watch rutting Elks play rabie infested Beavers on a pond in the Yukon if its being shown.

Interesting concept.

[cam_wmh]

Originally Posted by troutman

Hockey Avidity is another way to measure markets. I've posted this before so it is dated (2015):

https://www.northernpolicy.ca/articl...arket-1747.asp

Browsed the article, and couldn’t find the answer, into how an avid fan is identified. I’m also surprised, at the difference between Alberta’s teams, Vancouver and then Winnipeg’s.

Compound that with, Kansas City & Houston, and especially Vegas & Seattle.