Flames increase season tickets prices again! Update: Flames reverse price increase!

[Strange Brew]

Originally Posted by Jiggy

I have it on good authority that the Flames have not made much profit the last decade. There was a few years that the Hitmen were more profitable. Having a team in Canada can be expensive when you have to pay players in USD. Travel for Western teams is more expensive than teams out East. Management, scouts, therapists, doctors, equipment, front line staff...etc all cost money.

This doesn't shock me. The Flames don't strike me as an organization that is run all that well as a business.

They almost always have two head coaches on the payroll, the current guy and the fired guy.

Lots of contract buyouts.

Don't seem overly innovative with branding opportunities and/or in game marketing and promotions.

A heavy amount of overhead at the top end of the organization. You had Treliving, Burke and King all on the payroll for a while.

A poorly conceived initial campaign to get a new building.

I don't think they're cheap. I just don't know that if I'm the owner I would see leaders that are being great stewards of my money.

[GioforPM]

I suspect not a lot of teams made a lot of profit this decade. Their margins just aren’t huge.

[Cleveland Steam Whistle]

Originally Posted by Strange Brew

This doesn't shock me. The Flames don't strike me as an organization that is run all that well as a business.

They almost always have two head coaches on the payroll, the current guy and the fired guy.

Lots of contract buyouts.

Don't seem overly innovative with branding opportunities and/or in game marketing and promotions.

A heavy amount of overhead at the top end of the organization. You had Treliving, Burke and King all on the payroll for a while.

A poorly conceived initial campaign to get a new building.

I don't think they're cheap. I just don't know that if I'm the owner I would see leaders that are being great stewards of my money.

While I don't dissagree that there could be opportunities to run the business better, it's absolutely not shocking that the Flames don't make a profit very often. Running a small market Canadian club won't return huge on the investment.

The average ticket price for the Flames, even if they sold out every game, doesn't even cover the cost of the players salaries on a cap team which the Flames are consistently. I realize tickets are not the only source of revenue at all, but player salaries aren't the only expense either (not to mention they don't cover the cost of players with the tickets anyway). About 10 years ago I read somewhere the Flames need to host at least 4 playoff games to make a profit, not sure if that was / is still true.

[chedder]

Originally Posted by Jiggy

I have it on good authority that the Flames have not made much profit the last decade. There was a few years that the Hitmen were more profitable. Having a team in Canada can be expensive when you have to pay players in USD. Travel for Western teams is more expensive than teams out East. Management, scouts, therapists, doctors, equipment, front line staff...etc all cost money.

I wouldn't feel too sorry for ownership. The value of the franchise has skyrocketed in the last 10 years. That's ultimately how they make their money. I'd also be wary of believing they aren't too profitable. Sold out stadium, tv money, etc. I thought I had read somewhere that the Flames are still one of the most profitable nhl team. Also, never forget that owning a pro sports team is an ego thing for these billionaires.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by chedder

I wouldn't feel too sorry for ownership. The value of the franchise has skyrocketed in the last 10 years. That's ultimately how they make their money. I'd also be wary of believing they aren't too profitable. Sold out stadium, tv money, etc. I thought I had read somewhere that the Flames are still one of the most profitable nhl team. Also, never forget that owning a pro sports team is an ego thing for these billionaires.

Value of the franchise isn’t how they make money at all, unless they sell their interest. Yearly profit is how they make money.

[Strange Brew]

Originally Posted by Cleveland Steam Whistle

While I don't dissagree that there could be opportunities to run the business better, it's absolutely not shocking that the Flames don't make a profit very often. Running a small market Canadian club won't return huge on the investment.

The average ticket price for the Flames, even if they sold out every game, doesn't even cover the cost of the players salaries on a cap team which the Flames are consistently. I realize tickets are not the only source of revenue at all, but player salaries aren't the only expense either (not to mention they don't cover the cost of players with the tickets anyway). About 10 years ago I read somewhere the Flames need to host at least 4 playoff games to make a profit, not sure if that was / is still true.

I have no data to back me up, but I imagine there are more NHL fans in the Calgary area than in large US markets outside of NYC, Chicago, Philly, Boston, maybe Detroit. Hard to say because places like LA, San Fran etc. are huge.

But I believe the single biggest thing hurting Canadian franchises is the exchange rate. So to your point, they can sell a lot of tickets but in terms of US$ revenues...

Is there a source of data for each team's ticket sale revenue?

[FlamingHabs Fan]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

Value of the franchise isn’t how they make money at all, unless they sell their interest. Yearly profit is how they make money.

Flames from what I have seen are under 10 million/yr in profit, even down around the break-even (This doesn't include the revenue sharing).

The way the value of NHL teams has skyrocketed, you would easily make more money quicker by selling your share.
The owners would look at it more like a real estate holding than a yearly operating company for a team like this.

NYR, Tor, Mtl would be the best for yearly profits.

[chedder]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

Value of the franchise isn’t how they make money at all, unless they sell their interest. Yearly profit is how they make money.

Sorry, yes I realize yearly profit is one thing but knowing that your vanity project is worth 10 or more times your initial cost is important to owners. Selling at a significant gain is making money too.

[Royle9]

Salary cap's going up, they've got to recoup the increase.

[Leeman4Gilmour]

With how cheap money is, they probably make more money borrowing against the value of the franchise at x% and safely investing for a return of 2x% or 3x%

[rage2]

Originally Posted by Jimmy Stang

Was the truck removed or relocated? The cynic in me thinks that it is more likely that Dodge (or whoever) ended their sponsorship, or the fire department finally called them out on it as a hazard. The Flames will put anything anywhere if it can generate a few bucks - the flow of people has always been secondary.

They told us that their hands were tied at the time and have to wait until the contract ended.

Originally Posted by bizaro86

I think those empty but sold seats should worry them. STH who can't use or sell a bunch of seats will eventually stop renewing. And that will hurt attendance more.

I go to a bunch of games each year because I have the tickets that I probably wouldn't have actively sought out tickets for. But I had decided in advance to go so I do. If my package reaches a tipping point where I dont renew, I'll almost certainly go way less games.

Their upgrade seats program takes care of that pretty well. They've basically sold the tickets twice to anyone using it. I check it out every game and the lower bowl is mostly sold out.

There's a pair of seats right in front of the owners box that's awesome. I've hit them on upgrades for 2 games this year already. For $75/seat it's a smoking deal of an upgrade. Even for the MTL game at $120 a seat was worth every cent.



Pay it forward pro tip: If you buy an upgrade, your old seats gets unused. I typically check friends that are at the game in the PL and give them my original seats.

Cheap lower bowl tickets pro tip: A couple of my friends check for upgrades, once they confirm, buy $10 PL tickets from Kijiji or scalpers at the door to get in to use the upgrades.

[Cleveland Steam Whistle]

Originally Posted by Strange Brew

I have no data to back me up, but I imagine there are more NHL fans in the Calgary area than in large US markets outside of NYC, Chicago, Philly, Boston, maybe Detroit. Hard to say because places like LA, San Fran etc. are huge.

But I believe the single biggest thing hurting Canadian franchises is the exchange rate. So to your point, they can sell a lot of tickets but in terms of US$ revenues...

Is there a source of data for each team's ticket sale revenue?

Exchange rate plays a big role for sure. Don't have formal data source, but the math is pretty easy to do even to get directional.

Looks like Average Flames ticket price is $77 CDN or $59 bucks US. Average would be the right number to take for this calculation also, assuming the average is calculated correctly on all tickets sold.

Saddle dome capacity: 19,238

19,238 x $59US x 41 home games = $46.5M USD

NHL Salary Cap (to which the Flames are tight) = $81.5M USD

As stated, it's far more complicated than that, tones of revenue streams missing, but also tones of expenses missing. Point being, selling out the Dome for 41 home dates barely gets the team past 1/2 of the on ice Players Salaries. So I'm sure profits are slim if any, and totally puts a light on why teams might try to push for playoff dates, that gate revenue has to be gold.

[Southside]

Let's not forget the big cheque ownership picked up from Vegas expansion and the big cheque coming from Seattle.

[squiggs96]

Originally Posted by Cleveland Steam Whistle

Saddle dome capacity: 19,238

19,289. It doesn't drastically alter the math, but come on.

[Ace]

Originally Posted by burn_this_city

After 14 or 15 seasons my friends and I who split seats have decided we aren't renewing. We all have families with infant children so between that and the poor value proposition we've had enough.

These last 2-3 years have been especially painful trying to sell in the resale market and I usually lose 30% on every game sold.

Flames are pushing it a bit here, the economy is still soft and getting worse. There might be a lot of people deciding to call it quits.

Where are your seats, and what is the cost?

[boogerz]

Originally Posted by Vinny01

This is disappointing. The biggest struggle for me is the resale. I have tickets in the blues and I have struggled mightily to sell tickets. Typically I have had to sell my seats the day of the game which means I can’t donate them so I sell them for half my price or give them away to friends.

If resale were easier then I don’t have a problem paying the increase.

That's the primary reason I let go of my season tickets this time last year. The resale market took a noticeable nosedive back in 2017-18

[DeluxeMoustache]

Originally Posted by boogerz

That's the primary reason I let go of my season tickets this time last year. The resale market took a noticeable nosedive back in 2017-18

Yeah, I decided the same mid GG term. By that point I was splitting with 3 others.

The other thing is that even with only ~10 games, I ended up having tix to games against dreadful opponents

Even splitting tix with three others, getting 10 games, you end up with 4 or 5 where it is an inconvenient/ unforeseen conflict time, or just mid week against meh opponents, etc.

Being able to pick and choose, say, the 6-8 games that you actually really want to be at - could include the games you didn’t end up getting in your own draft - beats having tix that you can’t get rid of without taking a loss on STH price

It is really surprising, given the local economy (still so rough) and the current secondary market, that they would increase prices.

They really do seem to be out of touch with current economic reality

[drewtastic]

Here's my perspective, as a current STH...

I bought into Season Tickets during the lean years of the early 2000s. At that time, there was still much consternation that the Flames were simply not viable in Calgary.

(To wit:

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/calga...2000-1.3054645

I think there was even a "Thank You Fans" banner raised in 2001, for Calgarians who bought enough tickets to save the team...)

As a born-and-raised Calgarian (born two years before the Flames came to Calgary, and, therefore, only ever regarding the Flames as the one NHL team worth cheering for...), the idea of being a STH during my youth was as realistic as Edmonton ever becoming a world-class city.

By the year 2000, however, the dream seemed more plausible. My uncle (himself recently transplanted from Winnipeg, a city decimated by the loss of its own beloved NHL team) purchased two Flames seats with his friend. In 2000-2001, he asked if me and my Dad wanted to take a 25% share of tickets from them. We jumped at the opportunity.

Over the course of the next couple of seasons, my Uncle and his buddy bought tickets closer to the centre-ice line. In 2002-2003, the share of the original seats flipped to 75%/25% in my favour. Despite the team's on-ice woes, it remained an amazing reality for my Dad and I, attending so many Flames games in person. I was a die-hard and I loved every minute.

To begin the 2003-2004 season, my Uncle wanted to relinquish his share of "my" seats, simply because he and his friend had full control of their new (and better) seats. He asked me if I wanted to assume full control of his old seats. Naturally, I said yes! My Uncle said: "Well, phone the Flames office and get them to put the tickets in your name." So I did.

In a scene that would be all but impossible in 2020, the young and naive early-20-something me phoned the Flames' ticket office and explained that I had been sharing seats with my Uncle, but that he had purchased new seats, and now I wanted to put the old seats under my name in full. Because the Flames were still so desperate for renewals (let alone new STHs), the response from the ticket agent was simply: "Sure". Unbelievably easy!

How was I to know that the 2003-2004 season would unfold the way that it did? It was an amazing ride, regular season and playoffs combined. I was in my second year practicum of teaching, becoming a full-fledged teacher in April, 2004. Nevertheless, my Dad and I attended every single regular season game, and the only playoff game I did not see was the one that I begged my Mom to attend so that she could experience the atmosphere of the Dome with my Dad. That season is burned into my memory. (I firmly believe that it will never be surpassed in its excellence so long as I remain an STH...and I also believe it will be the last time I see the Flames in the Cup Final in my lifetime...but that's a debate for a separate thread...)

It was a magical season in so many ways, but it also changed the way the Flames organization engaged with us as STHs, because--suddenly--the Flames were perennial contenders. Suddenly, the Flames could command prices from the public that they couldn't a scant four years previously.

For us as STHs, things started to change dramatically.

Between 2004 and now, I have experienced the following as an STH:
-annual ticket price increases (independent of team performance)
-decreasing "perks" for being an STH (the main one being that, when we initially bought in, we could purchase tickets anywhere in the Dome at that section's season ticket price...after 2004, that perk disappeared entirely.)
-decreasing access to "STH Events" (at least, such events have been increasingly scheduled during the middle of work days rather than evenings)
-increased concession costs
-attempts at "improving in-house experience", while on-ice performance has remained middling, at best.

For several reasons since 2004 (including my transistion into a full-time career, as well as ticket cost and time committment), my Dad and I have decreased our season allottment of tickets. The time committment required to attend even ten home games is enormous, let alone the (increasing) financial burden. The team's on-ice inconsistency has also been a factor, resulting in my Dad and I agreeing to attend no more than five home games per year. I find this number to be more than enough, at this point, time-committment wise and finance-wise. (And remember--I began this STH journey as a "die-hard"...even taking a "The House That Kravchuk Built" sign once...that's a great story for a different day...)

Thankfully, we have been able to share our seats with a number of friends and family who buy in at the season ticket cost. The number of people who have shared our seats has increased from four to ten in the past decade. While I still coordinate ticket distribution (and therefore remain the "owner" of the seats), without these people, I could not afford to remain an STH.

And despite all of this, I completely understand the arguments from people who say: "Be grateful you are in a position to own Season Tickets", because I was once someone who only dreamed of doing so. I also completely understand (and support!) the idea that the market sets prices--I am fully aware that if I were to give up my seats, somebody else would snap them up in an instant. And I am okay with that, because I understand the basic underpinnings of supply and demand.

Nevertheless, I understand STHs' complaints about increasing costs, especially because I am a STH who facilitates many fans' ability to attend games. (And I am an STH who bought in at a time when the team was BEGGING fans to attend...)

I am also aware that the Flames' disposition has changed in the last twenty years. Where the team once allowed a guy like me to naively phone in to change seats into my name, they now tell people like my Uncle (when they phone in to question ticket increases): "There are hundreds of people who will buy your seats if you don't want them". (Paraphrasing here, but that conversation actually occurred.)

From this perspective, it would be nice if the Flames could at LEAST recognize the fact that many of us (as STHs) are not exceptionally wealthy. That they could recognize that many of us have been around for a while. It would be nice to receive SOMETHING unique (other than the "Fan Attic discount"), especially because it was only two decades ago that the team was threatening relocation.

For those of you saying that I should be "grateful" as a STH, I am: I am extremely grateful to the friends/family who have come along for the ride, allowing me the ability to hang onto seats that I otherwise would have had to relinquish. And while I understand (and accept!) the Flames being a business focused on making a profit, it would be nice if they would acknowledge the sacrifice put forward by many of us (hard working) STHs over the years in a more substantial way.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Leeman4Gilmour

With how cheap money is, they probably make more money borrowing against the value of the franchise at x% and safely investing for a return of 2x% or 3x%

I don’t think the individual owners can borrow against the value of their shares. I suspect there is a USA prohibiting encumbering the shares, as well as a ROFR which would make using the shares as collateral very difficult. Not to mention traditional lenders (who are the only source of “cheap” money) don’t like these types of ventures due to cash flow volatility - they’d need to borrow using debentures or investment bankers, like Edwards himself (which isn’t cheap money).

[sec304]

I just finally cancelled my tickets after having them since 2000-01. Haven't been able to afford them for a few years but broke even selling most of the games, not that the resale market is brutal I can't even break even anymore