Andrew Mangiapane's upside

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

Sorry, that’s just not how they operate. Agents don’t provide financial advice. It’s not in their mandate. They don’t have tax guys on their “team”. In fact they don’t really have teams at most of these agencies. It’s more like a partnership of a bunch of independent actors. They run pretty lean organizations.

At best they might have some tax guys they recommend. But their commission is on the total cash, not after tax. So they don’t care.

Apparently the feeling is that they don’t take advantage of tax laws:

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/inve...high-canadian/

Alan Walsh (yeah I know) has said that he puts tax planners on the case and Newport says they have advisors, but as far as I can tell this is higher level stuff than most run of the mill financial planners get into.

As I said, agents don't but their teams do (or they recommend professionals)

Virtually no one is capable of filing cross border taxes on their own - including accountants who don't do it regularly. NHL players simply could not file on their own. They have to have professional help.

And every agent I have ever worked with has people on staff that do it. The agent's job is to ensure that their client gets the help they need.

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by Shazam

NHL players are employees, so there's very little they can do to lower their tax burden.

By employees, what you mean is, they receive income. And there is little you can do about income, other than pay the tax on it. However, while that is mostly true, it is not entirely true - there are definitely deferral strategies that are available to them, among other things.

And more importantly, even if there was nothing you could do, you still have to file correctly. And I would venture to say you could could the number of players who could file in both countries, on their own, with your fingers.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

As I said, agents don't but their teams do (or they recommend professionals)

Virtually no one is capable of filing cross border taxes on their own - including accountants who don't do it regularly. NHL players simply could not file on their own. They have to have professional help.

And every agent I have ever worked with has people on staff that do it. The agent's job is to ensure that their client gets the help they need.

Then why are all the agents whining about taxes in Canada? Or are the “it’s not a problem” folks wrong?

[GranteedEV]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

Then why are all the agents whining about taxes in Canada? Or are the “it’s not a problem” folks wrong?

Taxes in Canada are not markedly worse than taxes in California or New York, though?

Sure, some places like Vegas and Florida have a significant edge in taxation, but and it leads to an imbalance, but ultimately they're the outliers. It's not as cut-and-dry as Canada vs USA

[Knightslayer]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

Sorry, that’s just not how they operate. Agents don’t provide financial advice. It’s not in their mandate. They don’t have tax guys on their “team”. In fact they don’t really have teams at most of these agencies. It’s more like a partnership of a bunch of independent actors. They run pretty lean organizations.

At best they might have some tax guys they recommend. But their commission is on the total cash, not after tax. So they don’t care.

Apparently the feeling is that they don’t take advantage of tax laws:

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/inve...high-canadian/

Alan Walsh (yeah I know) has said that he puts tax planners on the case and Newport says they have advisors, but as far as I can tell this is higher level stuff than most run of the mill financial planners get into.

NHL players do not pay agent fees on total salary. They pay on what they take home. After taxes.

[Shazam]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

By employees, what you mean is, they receive income. And there is little you can do about income, other than pay the tax on it. However, while that is mostly true, it is not entirely true - there are definitely deferral strategies that are available to them, among other things.

And more importantly, even if there was nothing you could do, you still have to file correctly. And I would venture to say you could could the number of players who could file in both countries, on their own, with your fingers.

No, I mean they are employees by the legal term as defined by the CRA. Therefore, they get a T4. Their team is the employer.

Please, do tell how an employee defers income, considering that it's a surefire bet that the employer is remitting payroll tax every two weeks.

Also, I see no reason why they would get a W2 from the USA.

If they are an American working in Canada, then they do have to report that income to the USA.

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

Then why are all the agents whining about taxes in Canada? Or are the “it’s not a problem” folks wrong?

Because part of their income is being taxed in Canada, and those taxes are higher than other jurisdictions. No matter what you do, if you play for Dallas, you are going to pay less taxes than if you play for Toronto. Full stop.

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by Shazam

No, I mean they are employees by the legal term as defined by the CRA. Therefore, they get a T4. Their team is the employer.

Please, do tell how an employee defers income, considering that it's a surefire bet that the employer is remitting payroll tax every two weeks.

Also, I see no reason why they would get a W2 from the USA.

If they are an American working in Canada, then they do have to report that income to the USA.

Yes, I understand that. What I meant is: the important fact from that is that they receive income (i.e. a T4).

If you want to know about deferral strategies, look them up. I am not going to try and explain tax strategies in a post on a chat forum - that would take me hours, and the internet can do an infinitely better job.

(not trying to be a jerk, it just isn't feasible to try and answer that)

[FanIn80]

On the topic of having our minds blown...

Going back to the tail end of last season, this man who consumes copious amounts of bread has scored 20 goals in his last 23 NHL games.

(and also managed to squeeze in 7 goals in 7 games at the Worlds inbetween seasons)

[The Cobra]

Originally Posted by Knightslayer

NHL players do not pay agent fees on total salary. They pay on what they take home. After taxes.

I don't think that is correct. They pay agents fees based on the money they receive after escrow but before income taxes. Income taxes would vary in any event based on the actual players situation such as married, single, dependants, RRSP, alimony etc.

But the agents fees are tax deductible.

[Erick Estrada]

His 15 goals and 2 assists reminds me of a Wendel Clark stats line but more extremely biased towards goals.

[Monahammer]

Originally Posted by FanIn80

On the topic of having our minds blown...

Going back to the tail end of last season, this man who consumes copious amounts of bread has scored 20 goals in his last 23 NHL games.

(and also managed to squeeze in 7 goals in 7 games at the Worlds inbetween seasons)

Heading for 50 in 50!

[Hemi-Cuda]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

His 15 goals and 2 assists reminds me of a Wendel Clark stats line but more extremely biased towards goals.

It's giving me shades of Johnathan Cheechoo, with even less assists. Mangiapane has the highest shooting % of any player with 5 or more goals, there's no way that's sustainable. I'm worried that he gets a massive contract next year due to blowing up this season only to significantly regress

[Knightslayer]

Originally Posted by The Cobra

I don't think that is correct. They pay agents fees based on the money they receive after escrow but before income taxes. Income taxes would vary in any event based on the actual players situation such as married, single, dependants, RRSP, alimony etc.

But the agents fees are tax deductible.

I recall reading an article saying NHL agents get their percentage on take home pay which I assumed meant after taxes. Guess they could be wrong.

Originally Posted by Hemi-Cuda

It's giving me shades of Johnathan Cheechoo, with even less assists. Mangiapane has the highest shooting % of any player with 5 or more goals, there's no way that's sustainable. I'm worried that he gets a massive contract next year due to blowing up this season only to significantly regress

Yeah I really think Mangiapane is a really good player but anyone being honest can see this isn't sustainable obviously. I can point to about 5 or 6 goals that really had no business going in and very hard to recreate. He's been extremely fortunate so far but he has been working really hard for his bounces.

I kind of cringe when I see posters thinking he is a $7 million dollar player. He won't be, not on the Flames.

[Cecil Terwilliger]

Originally Posted by Hemi-Cuda

It's giving me shades of Johnathan Cheechoo, with even less assists. Mangiapane has the highest shooting % of any player with 5 or more goals, there's no way that's sustainable. I'm worried that he gets a massive contract next year due to blowing up this season only to significantly regress

I'm not a fan of like 90% of all contracts signed in the NHL and I know we can't afford to lose him but holy man do I ever hope Tre can work some magic and Mangi takes a reasonable contract.

Someone the other day said he's now at min a $7m/yr player. Could you imagine if his ceiling is a 20-25 goal scorer (long term) and we have him for $7m a year for 8 years? JFC.

I'd give him that on a 1 year deal, maybe. If he wants long term it better be under $6m.

And if he does turn out to be a superstar goal scorer, I'd be happy to pony up the cash after a couple more big seasons to prove this isn't a one hit wonder.

I've always been a fan of paying players what they're worth on shorter term contracts, even if it means they get big raises season to season. Unfortunately the reality is that NHL contracts are dictated by the dumbest GMs and that has meant that short term contracts basically don't exist. He's getting 5 years minimum I think.

[GranteedEV]

Originally Posted by Cecil Terwilliger

I'm not a fan of like 90% of all contracts signed in the NHL and I know we can't afford to lose him but holy man do I ever hope Tre can work some magic and Mangi takes a reasonable contract.

The time to do that, was two years ago when Tre played hardball instead

[GioforPM]

I’d like to see a breakdown of what people think a good team would pay players slotted in at various places in the lineup - first line salary, second line etc. It never works out that way because of great players on ELC or blossoming in their first RFA contract but it’s a good template to start with.

[Knightslayer]

Another thing going against Mangiapane is his size.

Not a lot of teams willing to throw money at a small winger.

There is Martin. St Louis small who had tree trunks for legs and there is Mangiapane small.

[Hot_Flatus]

Originally Posted by FlamesAddiction

A poor man’s Gelinas maybe? I see some Cammalleri in him too.

Cammalleri had an elite one timer and serious snipe. Mangiapane certainly has the skills to pot 25 goals a handful of times in this league, but he does not possess an All Star release or finishing ability that Cammy did as a Flame. Mangiapane is far better in terms of a 200 ft game, so take it how you want to.

For me he's always reminded me of a Zuccarello, and really could quite easily exceed that level but anything beyond this is a reach imho.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by GranteedEV

The time to do that, was two years ago when Tre played hardball instead

This again. Treliving had no money to work with, mainly because of Tkachuk’s contract. And also Bennett and Rittich who needed to be signed. Who should have been his priority back then, with Mangiapane having one decent season under his belt? We’ve seen lots of one year wonders get signed and become pretty mediocre. Look up north.