[News] Practice Notes - 11/13

[Flames Draft Watcher]

Originally Posted by Strange Brew

I don’t really mind Ryan but you can’t just compare to options on the farm. It’s the opportunity cost of the 3 year deal he received. He is pricey in dollars and term for serviceable NHL depth. As you say it’s still too early to make conclusions.

Yeah I'm wary about how his deal and the Neal deal are going to look long term. UFA contracts are often a disappointment. You're almost never going to get a good value UFA deal unless the player just got bought out or is a reclamation project. 3ish million is far from crippling though. We had Stajan making more than he did for years and years when the cap was actually much lower. It is the most important position up front so if you're going to slightly overpay for one position it probably should be centre. And we have Monahan, Backlund and Janko all on reasonable contracts IMO so the money we're spending on centre as a whole is perfectly fine. Our 4 centres combined still make significantly less than McDavid/Draisaitl which is pretty funny.

But yeah, time will tell on that one.

[Karl]

Originally Posted by Flames Draft Watcher

Sounds like a bit of hyperbole is infused into your post.

I don't think it is hyperbole. He often does kill lots of plays with bad passes or lost puck battles when the puck gets into the offensive end.

I really think Ryan is a black hole on offense. It's a real shame.

[FanIn80]

Came into this thread just now. Don’t know what’s been argued about so far, but as far as lines go, I’d like to see:

Gaudreau Monahan Tkachuk
Bennett Lindholm Neal
Dube Backlund Frolik
Hathaway Jankowski Czarnik

[midniteowl]

Originally Posted by FanIn80

Came into this thread just now. Don’t know what’s been argued about so far, but as far as lines go, I’d like to see:

Gaudreau Monahan Tkachuk
Bennett Lindholm Neal
Dube Backlund Frolik
Hathaway Jankowski Czarnik

1st line no Ryan
2nd line no Ryan
3rd line no Ryan
4th line no Ryan

Yup, LOVE IT!

[jlh2640]

I hate that James Neal has become the new whipping boy. At least when I watch him play the talent is still there. Not like Brouwer who looked like a 4th line plug at best

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by Strange Brew

Thanks Bingo. At first I was shocked by the goals/hour ranks, but when thinking about some more, decided the numbers are so small in the first place that the differences may not mean much, atleast at this point in a season. Almost all the numbers are less than even one. So even one goal changes a players rank rather quickly.

This is an interesting stat to look at over a player’s career.

Yeah it really puts a slow start in perspective. A player with two or three goals at this point is really a goal away from a decent first quarter.

[bubbsy]

Ugh, ryan over czarnik makes no nense to me at all.

[Parallex]

Originally Posted by jlh2640

I hate that James Neal has become the new whipping boy. At least when I watch him play the talent is still there. Not like Brouwer who looked like a 4th line plug at best

The problem is that he doesn't seem to have a good fit here. Lindholm took that 1RW spot by the horns and isn't likely to let go any time soon, Neal doesn't look like he meshes with Backs and Tkachuk, and Neal isn't the kind of guy who can carry a line on his own so being a complementary player on the 3rd line doesn't allow him to find his usual level. There just isn't a fit right now.

I know trading a guy this soon after he signs isn't considered apropo but I think the Flames should start exploring it. Maybe as part of a package for Nylander or straight up for some player that offers similar value.

I still think Neal is a good player but it might just not be here.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Parallex

The problem is that he doesn't seem to have a good fit here. Lindholm took that 1RW spot by the horns and isn't likely to let go any time soon, Neal doesn't look like he meshes with Backs and Tkachuk, and Neal isn't the kind of guy who can carry a line on his own so being a complementary player on the 3rd line doesn't allow him to find his usual level. There just isn't a fit right now.

I know trading a guy this soon after he signs isn't considered apropo but I think the Flames should start exploring it. Maybe as part of a package for Nylander or straight up for some player that offers similar value.

I still think Neal is a good player but it might just not be here.

I don't know that this has been given enough time. It's been maybe a game and a half, during which time Backs and Tkachuk were not playing very well and Neal himself wasn't either (resulting in a benching). On the road as well, so limited practice time.

I think, for a shooter like Neal, chemistry needs to develop - it just doesn't happen. Whoever is passing needs to adjust to Neal's speed, his usual spot, his deliver, etc. Gaudreau to Monahan didn't happen overnight (that said, Neal got off to a hot start last year so I can't explain that).

[KootenayFlamesFan]

No Dube tomorrow. Maybe Czarnik gets in after all.

https://twitter.com/user/status/1062782152142544896

[Erick Estrada]

Originally Posted by Parallex

The problem is that he doesn't seem to have a good fit here. Lindholm took that 1RW spot by the horns and isn't likely to let go any time soon, Neal doesn't look like he meshes with Backs and Tkachuk, and Neal isn't the kind of guy who can carry a line on his own so being a complementary player on the 3rd line doesn't allow him to find his usual level. There just isn't a fit right now.

I know trading a guy this soon after he signs isn't considered apropo but I think the Flames should start exploring it. Maybe as part of a package for Nylander or straight up for some player that offers similar value.

I still think Neal is a good player but it might just not be here.

The guy has scored 20+ goals on four different teams. This isn't a guy that set up his career by playing on one good situation and not producing in his other stops. He's always produced. IMO if he doesn't fit it's on the coaching staff not the player. If you put players in position not to succeed and they generally don't.

[The Boy Wonder]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

I don't know that this has been given enough time. It's been maybe a game and a half, during which time Backs and Tkachuk were not playing very well and Neal himself wasn't either (resulting in a benching). On the road as well, so limited practice time.

I think, for a shooter like Neal, chemistry needs to develop - it just doesn't happen. Whoever is passing needs to adjust to Neal's speed, his usual spot, his deliver, etc. Gaudreau to Monahan didn't happen overnight (that said, Neal got off to a hot start last year so I can't explain that).

I thought Neal had his best games when he was playing with Bennett, they were hard to play against and they were generating chances.

I think having a better C between those two would still yield results, but I can't see them breaking up Backlund Thachuk anytime soon and you can't touch the top line.


Gaudreau - Mony - Lindholm
Bennett - Backlund - Neal
Thachuk - Dube - Czarnik


I'd like to see if Thachuk is able to carry his own line (its debateable if he doesn't already with Backlund, but humour me) with Janko or Ryan or Dube at centre with Frolik or Czarnik on the right side to maybe try and get Neal going.

[FiveSeven]

Czarnik should be playing every game imo.
I've seen nothing that should have him benched.
I'd even try putting him higher up in the lineup.

[habernac]

https://twitter.com/user/status/1062791624042852352

[dissentowner]

Originally Posted by habernac

https://twitter.com/user/status/1062791624042852352

You gotta be happy about that news.

[bax]

Originally Posted by habernac

https://twitter.com/user/status/1062791624042852352

Calling it now, Dube comes back for the battle of Alberta and gets his first.

[Fan in Exile]

Originally Posted by habernac

https://twitter.com/user/status/1062791624042852352

100% disagree with the way goaltending starts are being handled. I don't care how you rationalize it or all the repetitive claptrap on true and established #1s etc, etc. Hockey people get goalies wrong more often than they get them right. There is no tried and true way to figure out who is a #1. Don't care about the labels. Just know that Rittich is playing better right now, has been playing better all year long and he gives us a better chance to win. Smith has no future here anyway. Let's stop treading water already.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Fan in Exile

100% disagree with the way goaltending starts are being handled. I don't care how you rationalize it or all the repetitive claptrap on true and established #1s etc, etc. Hockey people get goalies wrong more often than they get them right. There is no tried and true way to figure out who is a #1. Don't care about the labels. Just know that Rittich is playing better right now, has been playing better all year long and he gives us a better chance to win. Smith has no future here anyway. Let's stop treading water already.

So, never play Smith again? Never try and get him going? Judging by the way Montreal played, if he and Rittich swap the next two games he gets the slumping team and not the provincial rival.

IMO this isn't about who is number 1, it's about trying to have two goalies, which you need.

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

The guy has scored 20+ goals on four different teams. This isn't a guy that set up his career by playing on one good situation and not producing in his other stops. He's always produced. IMO if he doesn't fit it's on the coaching staff not the player. If you put players in position not to succeed and they generally don't.

I'd be more apt to put it on the coaching staff if he was put on a line that didn't work and left there.

But he's had recorded shifts with 30 different combinations this season, or 10 if you put in a limit of 5 minutes or more together.

Ten different combinations! That's a coach trying to find a fit.

Here is a rank of those ten lines sorted by expected goal differential

P1	P2	P3	TOI	xGF	xGA	xG+/-
JAMES.NEAL	MIKAEL.BACKLUND	SAM.BENNETT	18.07	1.07	0.36	0.71
JAMES.NEAL	MARK.JANKOWSKI	SAM.BENNETT	39.45	1.6	1.07	0.53
DILLON.DUBE	ELIAS.LINDHOLM	JAMES.NEAL	8.62	0.46	0.01	0.45
ELIAS.LINDHOLM	JAMES.NEAL	JOHNNY.GAUDREAU	5.68	0.41	0.14	0.27
JAMES.NEAL	MATTHEW.TKACHUK	SEAN.MONAHAN	6.37	0.15	0.26	-0.11
DEREK.RYAN	JAMES.NEAL	SAM.BENNETT	24.95	1.18	1.43	-0.25
DILLON.DUBE	JAMES.NEAL	SAM.BENNETT	14.65	0.51	0.99	-0.48
DEREK.RYAN	DILLON.DUBE	JAMES.NEAL	14.7	0.32	0.82	-0.5
JAMES.NEAL	JOHNNY.GAUDREAU	SEAN.MONAHAN	24.45	0.78	1.31	-0.53
JAMES.NEAL	MATTHEW.TKACHUK	MIKAEL.BACKLUND	47.68	1.24	1.91	-0.67

Best line he's been on is with Bennett and Backlund ... +0.71 but that was only 18 minutes

Worst two lines are the plug in with lines one and two as they are set up ... both have differentials worse than -.50

The line with Jankowski and Bennett should have worked according to metrics but they couldn't score a goal to save themselves.

[Fan in Exile]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

So, never play Smith again? Never try and get him going? Judging by the way Montreal played, if he and Rittich swap the next two games he gets the slumping team and not the provincial rival.

IMO this isn't about who is number 1, it's about trying to have two goalies, which you need.

No, not never start Smith again but he absolutely should not continue to be treated as the unquestioned #1 with priority in starts and big games. And if you're pretending that isn't still happening, I'm not going to bother arguing it.