Oct 8th — Practice notes: 3rd/4th line shuffling, Andersson in

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by GullFoss

Has he looked like an nhl calibre top 9 winger? It's only been two games, and Dube is going to be a rock star one day but in my view he's not ready yet. If he doesn't look like a top-9 centre, I'd bet that he's going down to Stockton soon.

Yeah, he’s looked pretty decent. I’m not sure who we have in the pipe that looks better.

I’m just not sure what your point is. “Dube needs top 9 minutes, Mangiapane should be sent down, but does Dube LOOK like a top winger?”

Dube has top 9 minutes, Mangiapane IS in Stockton, and whether Dube looks like an top 9 winger pretty objectively weighs on who our lower options are, and they aren’t remarkable.

I think it’s good to have him learning in the top 9 at the NHL level. Better than top line at AHL.

[FlamesAddiction]

I wouldn't at all be surprised to see Dube eventually swapped out with someone from Stockton if someone is lighting it up down there and Dube starts to sputter, but out of camp, Dube earned it.

Guys like Dube, Foo and Mangiapane will probably be on a rotation, depending of course how they are doing on the farm.

[SeanCharles]

Originally Posted by JJFlash

And how many goals have Bennett and Hathaway scored in that time....Janko has set up his wingers but the can’t finish. Perhaps Janko might be better on the wing if they moved him up the line up.

I get what you are saying and the answer is not much:

Bennett: 5G, 4A
Hathaway: 2G, 3A
Janko: 9G, 1A (4G in game 82 playing on top line)

I get the natural reaction to my first post is to connect it to Bennett but my point was only to illustrate Jankowski sitting for a game wouldn't be a bad idea.

Bennett has been engaged in every game he plays in. He is struggling not because of a lack of trying or heart or focus. His troubles are something that are difficult to pinpoint - I know many like to say it's cause he has all the tools but no toolbox but I'm not so sure.

Jankowski isn't going to be sitting long and if there is one thing I have learned about Janko is he is extremely proud and would view this as a challenge. Every professional challenge he has faced to date he has overcome so I have no doubt it will work out the same way.

I'm just glad Peters is seeing what we all see in that Ryan doesn't have chemistry with Neal and should be bumped down and that there might be better fits on the 2nd PP unit as well.

[JJFlash]

Originally Posted by SeanCharles

I get what you are saying and the answer is not much:

Bennett: 5G, 4A
Hathaway: 2G, 3A
Janko: 9G, 1A (4G in game 82 playing on top line)

I get the natural reaction to my first post is to connect it to Bennett but my point was only to illustrate Jankowski sitting for a game wouldn't be a bad idea.

Bennett has been engaged in every game he plays in. He is struggling not because of a lack of trying or heart or focus. His troubles are something that are difficult to pinpoint - I know many like to say it's cause he has all the tools but no toolbox but I'm not so sure.

Jankowski isn't going to be sitting long and if there is one thing I have learned about Janko is he is extremely proud and would view this as a challenge. Every professional challenge he has faced to date he has overcome so I have no doubt it will work out the same way.

I'm just glad Peters is seeing what we all see in that Ryan doesn't have chemistry with Neal and should be bumped down and that there might be better fits on the 2nd PP unit as well.

I believe Janko has met most of his challenges. My issue is that Janko has only been away from Bennett or Hathaway when he was given top line minutes in the last game of the year and we all know how that ended. Now he was only put on the top line after they exhausted all options including the newly acquired Shore. I don’t feel that our top 6 is locked like some and Janko could provide more offence than Backlund with the same wingers. I also feel that it is up to Janko to show he has another gear.

[868904]

Originally Posted by SeanCharles

Bennett has been engaged in every game he plays in. He is struggling not because of a lack of trying or heart or focus. His troubles are something that are difficult to pinpoint - I know many like to say it's cause he has all the tools but no toolbox but I'm not so sure.

I’ve been saying this since last season, Bennett needs to develop an nhl shot. He has the heart and courage to get to the scoring areas but he has a muffin of a shot. He is no threat to score even when he gets to the danger areas. I don’t doubt that he works hard in the off season but I don’t think he’s working particularly smart. He needs to know what his weakness is, which is his shot (both velocity and release). When you see a 160 lbs Petterson shoot, you realize that the shot is not about size or strength but rather a skill, something that can be developed.

Crosby recognized his weak shot a few years ago and dedicated a whole summer to working on it. He came back the next year and scored 50 goals and is now a threat to score from anywhere. It looks like Bennett and the Flames (not sure why they have skills and player development coaches if they can’t identify this problem) still haven’t notice.

Low shooting percentage isn’t just about luck. Good shooters should score at a higher percentage. Low shooting percentage is most likely a reflection of a poor shooter.

[BigErnSalute_16]

Originally Posted by Bingo

Tough time to make changes I realize, but I'd flip Hanifin and Giordano on their units.

That top unit with Tkachuk causing mayhem needs the Hanifin wheels working the line and movement that comes from that.

I love Giordano as a player, but his shoot from the top of the umbrella penchant doesn't mesh well with the across the royal road options they are now trying to utilize.

Totally agree, love that he's getting the second unit time over Brodie at least

[cannon7]

Dube seems to be trying to do too much since making the roster. He was super effective in preseason by playing a simple forecheck and using his speed. Since making the roster he's been overthinking the game, making one too many passes, etc. Part of it it is likely nerves.

[GioforPM]

Dube has been just fine for a rookie. Breakaway in game one, solid play in all zones, set up a fair number of chances.

[BigErnSalute_16]

Originally Posted by 868904

I’ve been saying this since last season, Bennett needs to develop an nhl shot. He has the heart and courage to get to the scoring areas but he has a muffin of a shot. He is no threat to score even when he gets to the danger areas. I don’t doubt that he works hard in the off season but I don’t think he’s working particularly smart. He needs to know what his weakness is, which is his shot (both velocity and release). When you see a 160 lbs Petterson shoot, you realize that the shot is not about size or strength but rather a skill, something that can be developed.

Crosby recognized his weak shot a few years ago and dedicated a whole summer to working on it. He came back the next year and scored 50 goals and is now a threat to score from anywhere. It looks like Bennett and the Flames (not sure why they have skills and player development coaches if they can’t identify this problem) still haven’t notice.

Low shooting percentage isn’t just about luck. Good shooters should score at a higher percentage. Low shooting percentage is most likely a reflection of a poor shooter.

I could be remembering wrong, or it could be a different player that I'm thinking of but i thought i read that Bennett was working on his shot all offseason.

[JJFlash]

Originally Posted by 868904

I’ve been saying this since last season, Bennett needs to develop an nhl shot. He has the heart and courage to get to the scoring areas but he has a muffin of a shot. He is no threat to score even when he gets to the danger areas. I don’t doubt that he works hard in the off season but I don’t think he’s working particularly smart. He needs to know what his weakness is, which is his shot (both velocity and release). When you see a 160 lbs Petterson shoot, you realize that the shot is not about size or strength but rather a skill, something that can be developed.

Crosby recognized his weak shot a few years ago and dedicated a whole summer to working on it. He came back the next year and scored 50 goals and is now a threat to score from anywhere. It looks like Bennett and the Flames (not sure why they have skills and player development coaches if they can’t identify this problem) still haven’t notice.

Low shooting percentage isn’t just about luck. Good shooters should score at a higher percentage. Low shooting percentage is most likely a reflection of a poor shooter.

I completely agree. All you have to do is look at the highlight package from last year on Bennett to see that his goals are hard working and gritty goals but not goal scorer goals. On the other hand, Janko’s goals(with the exception of his first that went off his pants) were skilled and quickly released.

[JJFlash]

Originally Posted by cannon7

Dube seems to be trying to do too much since making the roster. He was super effective in preseason by playing a simple forecheck and using his speed. Since making the roster he's been overthinking the game, making one too many passes, etc. Part of it it is likely nerves.

His best games were against weaker competition but also when he played Center and could drive his line.

[Street Pharmacist]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

Dube has been just fine for a rookie. Breakaway in game one, solid play in all zones, set up a fair number of chances.

And all of our analysis is on a grand total of 21 minutes of ice over the first 2 games of his NHL career.

He's been ok, but reeeeeeeally small sample size here

[Macindoc]

Originally Posted by 868904

I’ve been saying this since last season, Bennett needs to develop an nhl shot. He has the heart and courage to get to the scoring areas but he has a muffin of a shot. He is no threat to score even when he gets to the danger areas. I don’t doubt that he works hard in the off season but I don’t think he’s working particularly smart. He needs to know what his weakness is, which is his shot (both velocity and release). When you see a 160 lbs Petterson shoot, you realize that the shot is not about size or strength but rather a skill, something that can be developed.

Crosby recognized his weak shot a few years ago and dedicated a whole summer to working on it. He came back the next year and scored 50 goals and is now a threat to score from anywhere. It looks like Bennett and the Flames (not sure why they have skills and player development coaches if they can’t identify this problem) still haven’t notice.

Low shooting percentage isn’t just about luck. Good shooters should score at a higher percentage. Low shooting percentage is most likely a reflection of a poor shooter.

Don't forget that Bennett had a much better shooting percentage in Hartley's system with better quality linemates. I don't think his skills have degraded at his young age, but he has been trying to do too much by himself and not using his linemates effectively, partly as a result of being with linemates who don't have great offensive skills. He's also been trying to pick corners too much, and as a result has been missing the net and hitting posts a lot. He needs high quality linemates and a bit of good fortune to restore his confidence so he doesn't overthink things and try too hard.

[foshizzle11]

I love the PP lines they listed. I think getting Brodie off the PP is a good idea as I feel he doesn’t have a sense of urgency a lot of the time. He doesn’t always make smart choices when entering the zone. I think Hanifin is a better option for the point.

Neal down low is a good spot for him if they aren’t willing to put him on his off wing for one timers from the circle. He is a big body with skill who can score goals. It could work.

Anderson in is a great thing since I don’t think Prout is a NHL player after the last game.

Janko hasn’t produced and hasn’t done anything to show that he is the third line centre. Maybe a game or two in the press box will be good for him.

I like Bennett moving up and playing with Neal and Dube, I think of Dube is struggling at face offs than Bennett can jump in for that line. I hope we get to see a couple of games of Bennett up with better players. I think Neal should be on one of the top two lines and since the top line is clicking you don’t split them up.

Ideal line up after two games:

Johnny - Monahan - Lindholm
Tkachuk - Backs - Neal
Bennett - Dube - Czarnik
Janko - Ryan - Frolik

If they need any toughness, than the worst player from the previous game comes out, so in this case I like Janko sitting for Hathaway. No Peluso please.

That third line could be very dangerous with the speed and tenacious forecheck. I would love to see it click. If they have I play Neal there instead I hope to see a lot more ice time for that line in the next game.

So many options!

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by foshizzle11

...I think Neal should be on one of the top two lines and since the top line is clicking you don’t split them up.

Ideal line up after two games:

Johnny - Monahan - Lindholm
Tkachuk - Backs - Neal
Bennett - Dube - Czarnik
Janko - Ryan - Frolik

I wouldn’t touch the second line right now. They were excellent in Game #2, controlled the play, had a tonne of offensive zone time every time they were on the ice, and had lots of ES scoring chances. Neal still looks to me like he is still getting going, and I much prefer Czarnik’s foot speed on a line that already features Tkachuk.




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[Patek23]

I think it’s time to accept that Bennett is going to be an minimally offensive player. If that makes him a “bust” in peoples eyes I guess so but I still think he can be effective in a 4th line checking role. I don’t see much else from him at this point he handles the puck like a grenade except for brief flashes of skill and his coordination and body placement on the once always seems to be out of synche with where he needs to be. Maybe the pressure to perform has gotten to him and just letting him plug away in a role that he is at least good at may bring back what we thought we had when we drafted him. Not every draft pick is a homerun and at least he’s an effective roster player, we’ve done a lot worse in the first round.

[heep223]

And you can always move him up the lineup when injuries hit and cross your fingers that he’ll show something.

[Yoho]

I agree with all the above. I just don’t want to hear anymore “he needs to play with top line mates to produce”. So might Lazar, but it’s not helping the top lines to play him there.

[Vinny01]

Originally Posted by Flaming Homer

I think it’s time to accept that Bennett is going to be an minimally offensive player. If that makes him a “bust” in peoples eyes I guess so but I still think he can be effective in a 4th line checking role. I don’t see much else from him at this point he handles the puck like a grenade except for brief flashes of skill and his coordination and body placement on the once always seems to be out of synche with where he needs to be. Maybe the pressure to perform has gotten to him and just letting him plug away in a role that he is at least good at may bring back what we thought we had when we drafted him. Not every draft pick is a homerun and at least he’s an effective roster player, we’ve done a lot worse in the first round.

I don’t understand why 2 games into a season where he is 22 is the time to accept that he is not going to score more than he has shown in the past. Writing him off as a 4th liner just doesn’t make sense. Let’s trade him for a 3rd so we can get Mangiapane, Foo, Klimchuk or other players the same age or older who have not made the NHL yet a chance because they have more upside?

I get that being a 4th overall pick raises expectations and speeds up timelines on players but maybe Bennett needs more time to develop? I just think it is silly to write him off 2 games into a new coaching staff. He scored 18 and 36 under Hartley and struggled under one of the worst head coaches the Flames had in a long time. Let’s give him at least 20 games with Peters before writing him off.


I am happy he is getting a chance with Neal who could be a great winger to add to his line.

[GranteedEV]

Perhaps the most annoying thing about this cyclical Bennett debate is people ignoring this fact:

Bennett has not been unproductive relative to his role and ice time.

Bennett has been unproductive relative to a role and ice time he does not play.

Expecting a 50pt season from a guy who isn't on a power play unit for the vast majority of the season, or expecting 30 assists from a guy setting up Garnet Hathaway is simply unrealistic.

I do think Bennett should have produced more goals last year, but he also had a career low shooting percentage. This has happened to very good players before. Nazem Kadri, a 30 goal scorer, is a few years removed from a season experiencing 2018 Bennett-like percentages. But again, these are not constants, they are yearly fluctuations.

I also think Bennett should have had better underlying numbers two seasons ago, but he also had a linemate who had an almost identical effect on the underlying AND on-ice goal numbers of every other center on that team - including Monahan and Stajan. But this was not in his control - he did not sign Troy Brouwer to a 4.5 M deal.

Right now Bennett is about to play with Neal. I expect him to produce admirably relative to that role. What I don't expect is him to outproduce that role whilst not being on a power play unit - that would be an unrealistic expectation. One OUTSIDE of his control. You have to compare his production to players who are getting similar deployment - ice time and special teams, not just look at raw stats and parrot old narratives.