German Tourist shot in the head near Morley while driving

[jayswin]

Originally Posted by TheAlpineOracle

It’s ridiclulous that they aren’t charging everyone in that vehicle. Each and every one of them should be charged with attempted murder.

This is purely emotional on your part and so absurdly beyond what should happen in a first world country (I think Florida is the only place that has something along these lines).

To properly empathize with other human beings in a position/charge/sentence that we often think up and blurt out when we're mad, you need to think about your own kids or family/close friends. This isn't foolproof as we tend to bend too far to leniency, but just be reasonable and try it.



1. Would you be upset but understanding if your son fired a bullet at someone and almost killed them, and was charged with attempted murder?


2. Would you be upset but understanding if your son found some new friends, got into a car one night, one fired a bullet at a guy, to which your son had no idea was going to happen and for the rest of his life he was an attempted murderer?





I bet your answer is yes to #1 and no to #2. Don't bull**** your answer and also don't say "my son would never be in that position" because that's what every parent thinks. Just think about what you actually advocated for and put someone close to you in that position and then answer.

I mean, Jesus Christ, you said that without even knowing anything about the other guys in the car. Think about that.

[jayswin]

Originally Posted by Huntingwhale

What a ####ty teenager. Bet he gets a light sentence because of his age and then he's back at 'er a couple years later.

Also sucks the media can't name him.

Again, I hate to be that guy in the thread, but why would you want media to be legally allowed to name youth? Because it's really egregious everything should go out the window?


Do you still want youth to be properly protected in other cases or should children be fair game in all scenarios? If not, then what's your proposed cut off? Where do you want to draw the line?

[SebC]

What protections does a 16-year-old psychopath deserve?

[troutman]

Originally Posted by SebC

What protections does a 16-year-old psychopath deserve?

Section 9: freedom from arbitrary detention or imprisonment.
Section 10: right to legal counsel and the guarantee of habeas corpus.
Section 11: rights in criminal and penal matters such as the right to be presumed innocent until proven guilty.
Section 12: right not to be subject to cruel and unusual punishment.
Section 13: rights against self-incrimination.

[GGG]

Originally Posted by SebC

What protections does a 16-year-old psychopath deserve?

Not being called a psychopath until he has had a trial and conviction.

[Oling_Roachinen]

Originally Posted by jayswin

This is purely emotional on your part and so absurdly beyond what should happen in a first world country (I think Florida is the only place that has something along these lines).

That's not quite true. Most of the States has some form of felony murder or accomplice law. 16 year old Lakeith Smith of Alabama was sentenced to 65 years after the police shot and killed his accomplish just a couple months ago. Smith didn't even have a weapon on him.

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by jayswin

This is purely emotional on your part and so absurdly beyond what should happen in a first world country (I think Florida is the only place that has something along these lines).

To properly empathize with other human beings in a position/charge/sentence that we often think up and blurt out when we're mad, you need to think about your own kids or family/close friends. This isn't foolproof as we tend to bend too far to leniency, but just be reasonable and try it.



1. Would you be upset but understanding if your son fired a bullet at someone and almost killed them, and was charged with attempted murder?

understanding of the charge or understanding of his action? I guess I'm still to close to this whole thing with gun violence, but my level of forgiveness and understanding would be extremely low.

Originally Posted by jayswin

2. Would you be upset but understanding if your son found some new friends, got into a car one night, one fired a bullet at a guy, to which your son had no idea was going to happen and for the rest of his life he was an attempted murderer?

Did he cone home, tell me and then get in the car with me to go to the police, or did he sit on it to protect his "Friends", while charging him with attempted murder would be ludicrous, accessory to or some kind of obstruction charge should be applied.


However, right now my tolerance and understanding of gun crimes is at a historic low.

[jayswin]

Originally Posted by Oling_Roachinen

That's not quite true. Most of the States has some form of felony murder or accomplice law. 16 year old Lakeith Smith of Alabama was sentenced to 65 years after the police shot and killed his accomplish just a couple months ago. Smith didn't even have a weapon on him.

Yes, an actual accomplice to attempted murder/murder I agree with if it can be proven beyond reasonable doubt, not "Everyone in that car should be charged with attempted murder because they were in the car".

[jayswin]

Haha, c'mon Captain, of course I was referring to being understanding of the charge and sentence not the fact that your son tried to kill someone!

[Huntingwhale]

Originally Posted by jayswin

Again, I hate to be that guy in the thread, but why would you want media to be legally allowed to name youth? Because it's really egregious everything should go out the window?


Do you still want youth to be properly protected in other cases or should children be fair game in all scenarios? If not, then what's your proposed cut off? Where do you want to draw the line?

I want them to be named because clearly the person(s) has committed a violent act and the public should have a right to know who did it. We name adults who rob banks, who murder others. Heck, people who aren't even convicted yet are named simply for being arrested/charged.

Serious question: Why should youth be any different? Why shouldn't society get to know exactly who the perpetrators are simply because of their age?

http://www.justice.gc.ca/eng/cj-jp/y...bli-publi.html

To answer my own question, this link provided me the answers I was looking for. I now understand why they do it. But it doesn't mean I have to agree with it. And I don't agree with it. Not for a serious case like this.

Purpose of Publication Bans
The rationale for protecting the privacy of young persons through publication bans is in recognition of their immaturity and the need to protect them from the harmful effects of publication so that their chances of rehabilitation are maximized.

Shouldn't adults fall under that category as well?

Reading further, there are exceptions as per the website.

...where the young person has received a youth sentence for a violent offence and the court determines that the young person poses a significant risk of committing another violent offence and the lifting of the ban is necessary to protect the public against that risk;

Personally I think this case more then fits this criteria. Sure if it's some vandalism or minor theft charge I agree with not naming them. But attempted murder? Damn son. I would personally want to know who did it. I'm sure the victim and his family would like to know too.

I'm sure there's other reasons to go along with a ban. Of course I'm not a law expert in any way. It's just my opinion that it's kind of dumb how a person who is at the stage of being arrested/charged with a crime can be named if they are an adult, effectively ruining many future prospects of employment, housing, etc well before any conviction happens. Yet when a youth is charged with a serious crime like this, suddenly it's all hush hush about naming them.

[GGG]

Your probably right that adults charged but not convicted shouldn’t be named.

[Drummer]

The Germans are going to be thrilled when they find out about the young offenders act.

[Mr.Coffee]

For whatever reason whenever subjects like this come up, I'm always amazed at the staunch defense of perpetrators as if they are the victims and not the people like this tourist, who left our country with a bullet in his brain. I wonder what his rehabilitation would be like?

Yes it is an emotional response, but I also don't see people's emotional responses generating criticism of a suspect aligned with the logic that the judicial process should not run its' course or that this teen should not get their day of court. No venting allowed nor time to comment on the asinine behavior at play here?

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by Drummer

The Germans are going to be thrilled when they find out about the young offenders act.

Pretty sure Germany (and most other European countries) has similar provisions for young offenders. If anything, European justice systems are even less punitive than Canada's.

[Drummer]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

Pretty sure Germany (and most other European countries) has similar provisions for young offenders. If anything, European justice systems are even less punitive than Canada's.

I read on Reddit something about a Gladue Report:
“A Gladue report is a type of pre-sentencing and bail hearing report that a Canadian court can request when considering sentencing an offender of Aboriginal background under Section 718.2 of the Criminal Code”

... not sure if this will have any weight or perhaps the youth will be charged as an adult, I suppose that’s a possibility.

[Snuffleupagus]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

Pretty sure Germany (and most other European countries) has similar provisions for young offenders. If anything, European justice systems are even less punitive than Canada's.

Germany is tougher on violent crimes though, In all likelihood this 16 year old wouldn't see freedom till he is 23, had the shooting killed the man he wouldn't have much of a chance at freedom till he's 31.

[OMG!WTF!]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

Pretty sure Germany (and most other European countries) has similar provisions for young offenders. If anything, European justice systems are even less punitive than Canada's.

They'll be even more pleased when they find out about Gladue sentencing principles.

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by Snuffleupagus

Germany is tougher on violent crimes though, In all likelihood this 16 year old wouldn't see freedom till he is 23, had the shooting killed the man he wouldn't have much of a chance at freedom till he's 31.

Are you sure?

https://www.themarshallproject.org/2...eats-juveniles

...The difference is that in Germany, they take these ideas further. Throughout Europe, juvenile sentencing laws cover people until they are at least 18. In Germany, that age is 21, and there is currently a political debate underway about extending the juvenile law to cover men and women up to 24. (They already stay in juvenile prisons until they are 24 or 25.) This is in sharp contrast to the U.S., where 16 and 17-year-olds are regularly placed in adult facilities. “We do not transfer juveniles to adult courts,” said Frieder Dünkel, a criminologist at the University of Greifswald in northern Germany, with a brisk matter-of-factness. “It is not possible.”

[CliffFletcher]

I think our over-exposure to American culture has given Canadians the impression we have a soft justice system. It's only soft compared to the U.S., that has the most punitive criminal justice system in the developed world. Like most things, when it comes to criminal justice Canada is somewhere between Europe and the U.S.

[tkflames]

Originally Posted by Snuffleupagus

Germany is tougher on violent crimes though, In all likelihood this 16 year old wouldn't see freedom till he is 23, had the shooting killed the man he wouldn't have much of a chance at freedom till he's 31.

Having grown up in Germany and seeing the German obsession with aboriginals, german reporting style....one of the likely responses from German media is:
1. They send a reporter to cover the story.
2. The German reporter goes for a wholistic "root cause" piece and reports not just on the shooting, but also on the reality of what living conditions in places like Morley are despite being immediately adjacent to a "top 5 city" in the world.
3. Depending on the size of that story in Germany, a number of followers may protest or initiate a response around the horrible treatment of aboriginals in Canada according to that story (similar to how seal clubbing is a large story in western Europe and almost non existant here). Canadian media is likely to pick up the German response story if it gets a significant following.
4. Many of those now worried about how the germans will perceive our justice system, will be the ones that are most upset about those same germans raising concerns about how we treat our aboriginals.

And thus the giant circle of irony continues....

This is an absolutely horrible story, but it is not really about a German getting shot on a reserve. It is a story of how an innocent person got shot by a 16 year old, the many conditions that lead to that outcome and our responsonility/response as a society.