Treliving w/o contract for next year

[TheScorpion]

Originally Posted by YYC in LAX

I agree. This has all the makings of a sign and trade situation.

It'd have to happen now for it to make sense.

[Greybeard]

Fire Burke. Fire Treliving. Fire Gulutzan. King is the problem. Trade Brodie. Trade Monahan. Bennett is never going to live up to potential so trade him. Trade Backlund while his asset value is high. Early in the year it was trade Hamilton. Why not trade everyone.

Here we are year 3 in our rebuild sitting in 7th place and fighting for a playoff spot. I can't believe how negative some posters are and the lack of patience to let this young team develop. We are doing well. Stay the course. Be patient. This team and management group have a lot of potential. I like the direction we are going.

[Strange Brew]

I love it. For every comment that is even somewhat critical of current management, you get three posts complaining about lack of patience and other hyperbole about posters calling for everyone to be fired.

My general sense of the comments here are that people are happy with Treliving's work but recognize it is far from a finished product and he really hasn't proved too much yet.
Other than the few who want to anoint him a wizard and call him the greatest GM in the team's history.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Strange Brew

I love it. For every comment that is even somewhat critical of current management, you get three posts complaining about lack of patience and other hyperbole about posters calling for everyone to be fired.

My general sense of the comments here are that people are happy with Treliving's work but recognize it is far from a finished product and he really hasn't proved too much yet.
Other than the few who want to anoint him a wizard and call him the greatest GM in the team's history.

I think that's restricted to those who never saw Cliff Fletcher (who operated under way different rules). I'd already put Treliving ahead of pretty much any other Flames gm, though. Thing is, that's a low, low bar.

[the2bears]

Originally Posted by Strange Brew

I love it. For every comment that is even somewhat critical of current management, you get three posts complaining about lack of patience and other hyperbole about posters calling for everyone to be fired.

My general sense of the comments here are that people are happy with Treliving's work but recognize it is far from a finished product and he really hasn't proved too much yet.
Other than the few who want to anoint him a wizard and call him the greatest GM in the team's history.

Best way to fight hyperbole is with more hyperbole.

[transplant99]

Originally Posted by Strange Brew

I love it. For every comment that is even somewhat critical of current management, you get three posts complaining about lack of patience and other hyperbole about posters calling for everyone to be fired.

My general sense of the comments here are that people are happy with Treliving's work but recognize it is far from a finished product and he really hasn't proved too much yet.
Other than the few who want to anoint him a wizard and call him the greatest GM in the team's history.

Exactly, so let him finish it.

[GioforPM]

Treliving is pretty darn good at contract management with existing Flames, with a couple exceptions (Bouma), including knowing when to walk away (Colborne). He's been OK at trades, Hamilton being the best, as well as his deadline sales for picks (and I bet some of his non-trades have been really good). I'd say his FA pickups have been 50/50. Frolik is good, Versteeg is good, Johnson is good, Engelland is good, Brouwer is good, Chaisson is OK. Raymond wasn't good, Setoguchi was no risk. Hiller was good, then bad, but only 2 years.

[Toonage]

Treliving is fantastic at trades I'd say. The returns for Glencross, Hudler & Russell were stand out deals. I feel very comfortable with him making deals. Not so with the previous regime(s).

[Jay Random]

Originally Posted by Eric Vail

Fletcher was one of the all time best GMs in hockey, but do you remember him trading Mel Bridgeman and Phil Russel for Steve Tambelini and Joel Quenneville?

That trade set the Flames back tremendously.

Bridgeman goes on to score 280 gritty points - mostly for New Jersey. Russel plays 190 games - again, mostly for New Jersey.

Tambelinni scores 54 points over two seasons for the Flames and is released. Quenneville never plays for the Flames as he is traded 2 weeks later as part of a package for Mickey Volcan who plays 19 games for the Flames before being demoted to the AHL and finishing in Europe.

or

Ken Houston (physical 20 goal scorer) and Pat Riggin (NHL's second all star goalie in 2983-84) for Howard Walker and George While who combine for 3 NHL games

or

Willie Plett for Steve Christoff, Bill Nyrop, and a 2nd rounder.

Plett was an intimidating enforcer who could play. Was rookie of the year and scored 39 goals in the Flames first season. Went on to play 6 more seasons after being traded.

Steve Christoff went on to play two seasons and never hit 10 goals in a season. Bill Nyrop never plays for the Flames. The second rounder plays 2 NHL games.

Not every move will work out.

You have to understand why those deals happened.

Russell, Houston, Riggin, and Plett were core players for the Atlanta Flames. That core had one good season after the relocation, and then basically staged a sit-down strike because they didn't want to be in Calgary. The '80-81 team finished with 92 points and made the third round of the playoffs. The '81-82 team scraped out 75 points and was easily bounced in the first round.

Fletcher didn't get good value for them because most of them demanded to be traded at a time when they were playing badly. So he sucked it up, and instead tried filling out the roster with college free agents who were happy just to be in the NHL – and the results are history.

[Jay Random]

Originally Posted by Strange Brew

I love it. For every comment that is even somewhat critical of current management, you get three posts complaining about lack of patience and other hyperbole about posters calling for everyone to be fired.

In point of fact, we've seen numerous posts on CP this year calling for various members of management to be fired. We've seen whole threads dedicated to the topic, and other threads taken over by it. It's been a frequent and widespread thing. Where's the hyperbole?

[Cleveland Steam Whistle]

Originally Posted by Mike F

IMO, Treliving has done a generally good job as GM, but has made two large mistakes that have seriously hamstrung the team:

1. In 15-16 he left the goaltender situation in a total mess, particularly to start the season, where the Flames dug a hole they could never get out of; and
2. in 16-17 he appears to have misfired on the coaching hire, saddling the team with Gulutzen who, remarkably, has managed to coach Gaudreau, Monahan, Bennett, Giordano, and Brody (what was supposed to make up virtually the entire core) into big steps back in their development

All-in-all, I think ownership needs to take a long, hard look at what else is on the market, but in the end I expect Treliving to get a short- to mid-range extension.

I don't dissagree with your thoughts on needing to make sure the decision is a sound one and thought out, and I agree that the 3 headed goalie was a mess last year.

However on your 2nd point, I think it's a little tough for you to draw that conclusion, and while I agree it's still a "time will tell" situation on what is a very important decision he has made for this team, I'd say the data doesn't point to it being a bad decision at all.

- The teams results so far this year, are better than last year under Hartley. At this point, after a very poor start, trending to be equal to Hartley's best year in 2014 although there is a lot of time for that to not be the case.

- As you also point out, some of our best players seem to be struggling under GG. Something that would be even more concerning IF the team was playing worse. But as pointed out, the team seems to be better. Maybe that's all on the back of better goaltending then last year, but I'd say no given the better goaltending hasn't occurred consistently. If the team is playing better, but the stars (and very young stars for the most part) aren't, I'd actually say that points to the young stars on this team being forced to play in a fashion that they weren't forced to under Hartley. Likely a fashion they need to learn to play, and learn to succeed in (i.e. put up offensive results too) if we ever want this team to be true contender. Monahan, Gaudreau, and Brodie "playing well" last year wasn't enough for us to make the playoffs, and wasn't enough for us to even be competitive with a true contender (the Ducks) the year before when we did make it.

While everything said in my second bullet is not proven, and is time will tell, I'd suggest what we are seeing from some of our young core is more of them being forced to be complete players and the result is a precieved slowing of their development, but one that will need to happen if they are to become the players we need. Under Hartley, they were certainly forced to play hard every night, but were they forced to be complete players, smart players in his run and gun style? That could be what we are seeing when it comes down to lack of offensive production.

[Strange Brew]

Originally Posted by the2bears

Best way to fight hyperbole is with more hyperbole.

That is the most ridiculous thing I have ever heard.

[Strange Brew]

Originally Posted by Eric Vail

Fletcher was one of the all time best GMs in hockey, but do you remember him trading Mel Bridgeman and Phil Russel for Steve Tambelini and Joel Quenneville?

That trade set the Flames back tremendously.

Bridgeman goes on to score 280 gritty points - mostly for New Jersey. Russel plays 190 games - again, mostly for New Jersey.

Tambelinni scores 54 points over two seasons for the Flames and is released. Quenneville never plays for the Flames as he is traded 2 weeks later as part of a package for Mickey Volcan who plays 19 games for the Flames before being demoted to the AHL and finishing in Europe.

or

Ken Houston (physical 20 goal scorer) and Pat Riggin (NHL's second all star goalie in 2983-84) for Howard Walker and George While who combine for 3 NHL games

or

Willie Plett for Steve Christoff, Bill Nyrop, and a 2nd rounder.

Plett was an intimidating enforcer who could play. Was rookie of the year and scored 39 goals in the Flames first season. Went on to play 6 more seasons after being traded.

Steve Christoff went on to play two seasons and never hit 10 goals in a season. Bill Nyrop never plays for the Flames. The second rounder plays 2 NHL games.

Not every move will work out.

Those trades all have one thing in common. Trading players on the back end of their career. The most successful franchise in pro sports right now (NE Patriots) operate under a philosophy that it is better to trade/release a player one year too early than one year too late.

[Erick Estrada]

Originally Posted by Jay Random

In point of fact, we've seen numerous posts on CP this year calling for various members of management to be fired. We've seen whole threads dedicated to the topic, and other threads taken over by it. It's been a frequent and widespread thing. Where's the hyperbole?

I think you are exaggerating here. There are some posters here that simply don't like Burke and will take any excuse to take a shot at him but that's a very small group and while some fans have been critical of Treliving and blame him for firing Hartley, 3 goalie rotation, etc, I can remember few posters outright calling for him to be fired. I haven't even seen it in this thread despite a lot of apologists stepping up on his behalf.

[Robbob]

Treliving is a tough negotiator. He probably isn't returning his phone calls.

[Jay Random]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

I think you are exaggerating here. There are some posters here that simply don't like Burke and will take any excuse to take a shot at him but that's a very small group and while some fans have been critical of Treliving and blame him for firing Hartley, 3 goalie rotation, etc, I can remember few posters outright calling for him to be fired. I haven't even seen it in this thread despite a lot of apologists stepping up on his behalf.

I'm not exaggerating at all. Remember the massive thread about firing Gulutzan and bringing back Hartley – less than a month into the season? During that time, if you toted up all the demands from this person and that to fire so-and-so or trade such-and-such, you would probably find that the only employee in the organization whom nobody wanted to get rid of was Harvey the Hound. And I'm not even quite sure about him.

The nonsense subsided once the team started to learn the new system, but the last week or two I've been seeing a recurrence of crazy pants.

[Cleveland Steam Whistle]

Nothing brings out the crazy pants like a loss to the Oilers. After a decade of their futility and the Flames absolutely dominating them, an Oilers team who is maintaining their bid for a playoff spot and one that we have not found a way to beat yet this season is something this fan base is clearly having a tough time coming to terms with emotionally. It sparks emotional responses, emotional analysis of the situation and puts a false barometer of must be ahead of Oilers for many when judging the progress of this team.

[Frank MetaMusil]

Originally Posted by Jay Random

I'm not exaggerating at all. Remember the massive thread about firing Gulutzan and bringing back Hartley – less than a month into the season? During that time, if you toted up all the demands from this person and that to fire so-and-so or trade such-and-such, you would probably find that the only employee in the organization whom nobody wanted to get rid of was Harvey the Hound. And I'm not even quite sure about him.

The nonsense subsided once the team started to learn the new system, but the last week or two I've been seeing a recurrence of crazy pants.

You're right, a lot of it was over the top. I still don't like Gulutzan but i'm willing to shut up until the season is over. I won't lose any sleep if Treliving doesn't return either.

I would definitely agree with those who find this brand of hockey boring though. It is.

[getbak]

Originally Posted by Jay Random

you would probably find that the only employee in the organization whom nobody wanted to get rid of was Harvey the Hound. And I'm not even quite sure about him.

No one is safe. At one of the games last week, the people sitting behind me were complaining that there must be a new Harvey this season because he's not as good as he used to be.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Toonage

Treliving is fantastic at trades I'd say. The returns for Glencross, Hudler & Russell were stand out deals. I feel very comfortable with him making deals. Not so with the previous regime(s).

I agree, his returns for rentals was awesome. I was going to add Berra but that was Burke. I can't think of an obviously bad trade. There were ones that didn't become huge successes for the Flames (Shore), but they're minor. And I still think he won or at least didn't lose the Granlund or Sven trades.