STH Info Sessions (May 24, May 25, June 15)

[Flames Draft Watcher]

Originally Posted by SuperMatt18

The thing is Burke said he thinks that this Nylander will be better than his brother.

If he truly believes that then there should be no way he is outside our top 8 - and should probably be in our top 6.

It depends though. I still think style of play comes into it. For example here was Redline Reports's description of William in his draft year:

"Exceptionally skilled - the most dynamic offensive talent in the draft. But son of longtime NHLer Michael Nylander has been coddled for years. Sometimes selfish, always a diva, and will give coaches grey hair. Has phenomenal hands and a world of skill; handles the puck as though it were glued to his blade, making ridiculous moves at top speed without a bobble. Glides effortlessly and is exceptionally elusive in tight quarters. While he’s a brilliant stickhandler, always looks for the flashiest “Wow!” play instead of the simple, correct one. Superb on the PP where he owns the puck and sets up every play. Seemingly has more time to process the game than anyone else. Can slow play down, control the pace, then explode. Tremendous finishing ability. Terrific playmaker with every pass in the book, plus a few extras. Often seems intent only on showing everyone how skilled he is. Small and a bit lazy."

They ranked him 11th. Most dynamic offensive talent in the draft they say. But they still had him 11th. They knock him for being selfish, small, lazy and guilty of making low percentage wow plays instead of simple, smart plays. Meanwhile they have Alex 8th I think currently? So Redline actually ranks Alex higher this year than they did William in his draft year.

I think the same reasons why Redline didn't like William in his draft year are the same reasons why Burke wouldn't like him. You can acknowledge someone is one of the most purely skilled players in the league but still not think that highly of them. See guys like Kovalev, Semin, etc. Some of the most skilled guys in the league but far from the most valuable guys in the league. This has been one of my arguments against Alex Nylander. Sure he may be one of the most purely skilled forwards this draft but he plays that soft, finesse style and often players of that style are extremely inconsistent and can disappear in the playoffs. Should we be building around that type of player in our division? I don't think so, especially not when we have one of the tiniest, most skilled forwards in the league who should be surrounded by big, skilled players to open up room for him.

Anyways my opinion is that Burke doesn't love average sized or below average sized finesse skilled players as much as some fans do. Therefore I think he doesn't rate Willy Nylander as being as valuable as some fans do. So Alex Nylander being better than Willy still doesn't necessarily mean he's top 8 for us this year IMO.

I know some won't buy that argument because they do really like average sized, skilled, finesse players and rate them very highly. I just don't think the Flames management values them as highly in the grand scheme of things.

[dammage79]

Yawn. FDW on repeat. Same thing over and over and over....

And again. Where's this "Soft play" coming from in regards to Alex. Just another fun little made up thing for FDW to use to try and brainwash people into thinking he is right.

He's no Lucic or Callahan, but he's no Semin either.

[Monahan For Mayor]

Scouts are always comparing Nylander to Pavelski. Similar skill set, similar size... The guy is leading the playoffs in points. Others in the top 10. Kucherov, Johnson, Crosby, Fabbri, we can not skip on Nylander because of size. The guy has insane skill, and is a RW RS.

[dammage79]

Originally Posted by Monahan For Mayor

Scouts are always comparing Nylander to Pavelski. Similar skill set, similar size... The guy is leading the playoffs in points. Others in the top 10. Kucherov, Johnson, Crosby, Fabbri, we can not skip on Nylander because of size. The guy has insane skill, and is a RW RS.

Flames have no need for Nylander, So I have been told 100 times.

[Flames Draft Watcher]

Originally Posted by dammage79

Yawn. FDW on repeat. Same thing over and over and over....

And again. Where's this "Soft play" coming from in regards to Alex. Just another fun little made up thing for FDW to use to try and brainwash people into thinking he is right.

He's no Lucic or Callahan, but he's no Semin either.

You can put me on ignore whenever you want. Someone argued that if Burke thinks Alex is better than William then he must be in our top 6-8 and I have merely provided the counter argument. We already knew you wouldn't buy it. I think my argument is sound. You fit in the camp of those who believe average sized finesse wingers are very important building blocks to build around. I believe they are probably the least important commodity to build around.

I've watched Nylander play at the U18s and with Mississauga. He isn't a gritty forward, he isn't a power forward. He plays that softer finesse style. That's his game, what am I making up? Is he less soft than his brother was at the same age? Yes. Is he bigger than his brother was at the same age? Yes. And those are probably the reasons why Burke likes him better than Willy.

I think you and I approach the draft very differently. My approach is to try and guess who the Flames think the best players available are. Your approach is to identify the biggest weaknesses on the Flames and try to find which prospect best solves that.

Nylander solves our immediate weakness in 2 years or later (at which time our weaknesses may have drastically changed.) But is he the BPA at #6 given the Flames philosophy of D>C>W and looking to add size/strength but not at the expense of skill/skating? I've always been skeptical and so far the quotes from our management back me up I think.

[Flames Draft Watcher]

Originally Posted by dammage79

Flames have no need for Nylander, So I have been told 100 times.

If you think that's my argument then you haven't been reading my posts.

Skilled finesse wingers are useful players. I just believe they are the least important. I think its dangerous to allocate too much of your cap space to that type of player. I think defensemen, centres and skilled powerwingers are more important. I think you can easily pick up skilled finesse wingers at the deadline. A few years back Vanek, Cammalleri, Gaborik, Hemsky and Moulson were all available the same deadline! EASY to find wingers when you're a contender. You don't need to be building around too many of them and we already have one of the best purely skilled finesse wingers in the entire league to build around. You need to build around franchise goalies, franchise centres and franchise d-men.

It's not that the Flames don't need Nylander. They could very much use a player like that. It's all about getting the best asset out of the draft, the most valuable player. I don't think Nylander will be the most valuable player long term out of all the players available at #6 because finesse wingers are one of the least valuable assets in trade and often end up on contracts that aren't appealing in terms of the cap.

[dammage79]

^ Still on repeat man. Over and over and over again.

Just because you keep saying it doesn't make it any more agreeable than the first 20 times you've said it.

I may put you on ignore as you're getting into Ricardodw territory. You and him can be best buds on the old ignore list.

EDIT: Whats the point of me putting you on ignore? You'll still quote my posts and spew out the same regurgitations for everyone else to read. It does nothing to solve the problem of you being a broken record.

[FBI]

Come on man, your constant bashing of FDW is annoying as hell as well...

I appreciate both your input on prospects so why don't you take the cat fight to PM..

[SuperMatt18]

My issue is if they think he is better than William and don't have him in our top 6-8 then I have some doubts about our scouting staff or this is a much deeper draft then people are giving it credit for.

Burke could have said he thought Alex was a better player in his draft year, then William was in his draft year but he didn't, he said he thinks he will be the better player. And the draft criticisms of William are less valid now due to his performance the last two seasons.

Sure you can have those issues with William a couple of seasons ago in his draft year but since then he has went on to be a PPG player in the AHL, and had a great start to his NHL career in the final 20 games this year.

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by dammage79

Yawn. FDW on repeat. Same thing over and over and over....

And again. Where's this "Soft play" coming from in regards to Alex. Just another fun little made up thing for FDW to use to try and brainwash people into thinking he is right.

He's no Lucic or Callahan, but he's no Semin either.

Think you guys are taking this too seriously.

[Lanny_McDonald]

Originally Posted by The Fonz

It would be a bad thing to add another Dman with a skillset similar to Brodie and/or Hamilton?

As for the other guys listed, they haven't accomplished anything yet. That kind of reasoning would have been like saying:

-Kesler (23rd, 2003) would be redundant on the Flames, because we already have Nystrom (10th, 2002)
-Lucic (50th, 2006) would be redundant, we already have Prust (70th, 2004)
-Holtby (93rd, 2008) would be redundant, we already have Irving (26th, 2006)

If Juolevi is seen as being the BPA, then that's who you draft, regardless of what's currently on your team or in your system.

This is a false equivalency.

Kesler (23rd, 2003) would be redundant on the Flames, if we already had three players like him in the lineup and another 3-4 in the minors.

Lucic (50th, 2006) would be redundant, if we already had three players like him in the lineup and another 3-4 in the minors.

Holtby (93rd, 2008) would be redundant, if we already had three players like him in the lineup and another 3-4 in the minors.

There's the problem. We have six guys like him for three to four positions. This is like living in Calgary and having a two seat sports car when you have a growing family. You know you need a SUV, and you head down to the local auto mall after promising your wife you'll address the need, but come home with another sports car; this one a convertible.

Sure, you're happy and know all your friends are going to impressed, but your wife is going to rip you a new one when she needs to take the four kids to school or go to the store for groceries. But have no fear, you'll be able to argue that you can trade that sports car for that SUV, or another needed vehicle, when the time comes.

[dammage79]

Originally Posted by Bingo

Think you guys are taking this too seriously.

Maybe. But there is merit to my statements. In any case, neither of us are really bringing anything new to the table. That I know. Still doesn't negate the fact reading the same thing over and over again when the poster is quoting my posts is tedious and grating. And it's the same for other folks reading my rebuttals, for that I apologize. I have taken this to PM with the same results.

If pointing out annoyances like folks do with Ricardo is that bad then feel free to ban me. But I don't think I have crossed any line.

[Bingo]

I think my response was pretty measured.

Just suggesting a chill out, you both make good points, and you both come at it from different sides.

Not much point in banning the Republican or Democrat when they will never even listen to one another.

[Flames Draft Watcher]

Originally Posted by SuperMatt18

My issue is if they think he is better than William and don't have him in our top 6-8 then I have some doubts about our scouting staff or this is a much deeper draft then people are giving it credit for.

I think its a much better draft than some people are giving it credit for. I've been arguing that for a while. The types of players I'm reading about in the 9-20 range would go top 10 some years. The types of players I'm reading about in the 4-8 range would be top 3-5 picks in some years.

That's my take anyways just from following various drafts.

For example I think the 3 top d-men this year are all significantly better prospects than Hadyn Fleury who went 7th overall I believe one year? I think Tkachuk/Dubois would've challenged for top 3 in some of the weaker drafts in the past 5 years.

[Caged Great]

Originally Posted by Flames Draft Watcher

I think its a much better draft than some people are giving it credit for. I've been arguing that for a while. The types of players I'm reading about in the 9-20 range would go top 10 some years. The types of players I'm reading about in the 4-8 range would be top 3-5 picks in some years.

That's my take anyways just from following various drafts.

For example I think the 3 top d-men this year are all significantly better prospects than Hadyn Fleury who went 7th overall I believe one year? I think Tkachuk/Dubois would've challenged for top 3 in some of the weaker drafts in the past 5 years.

I agree. It isn't as good as last year, but that was an absolutely ridiculous draft, both in talent and depth.

However, the first half of the first round is good in its own right. A lot better than 2012 and 2011.

[automaton 3]

I think anything Burke said about Nylander or Juolevi can be taken with a grain of salt.

Just enough red meat to keep the fans fat and happy, with a touch of smokescreen for the competition.

[jmac98]

Originally Posted by Bingo

I think my response was pretty measured.

Just suggesting a chill out, you both make good points, and you both come at it from different sides.

Not much point in banning the Republican or Democrat when they will never even listen to one another.

Bingo, Bingo.

It's why they make chocolate and vanilla. Because you like crappy ice cream.

[Vulcan]

This may be a great draft year but I'm coming to the conclusion that there is a ledge that drops after the top 5. I'm not predicting these players will shake out as the cut off in a few years but as of now the top 5 is where to be picking and we're picking 6th. This is probably why there is a lot of contention on who to pick at 6. There are a few gambles to take at 6 such as Keller and Brown but I think it comes down to Nylander or one of the three defencemen. Among the defencemen I like Juolevi but I'll be happy with any of the four players.

[Strange Brew]

Speaking of Ricardo, haven't heard from him lately. Something up? Or am I just missing them.

I personally like reading his posts and the ensuing pandemonium.

[The Fonz]

Originally Posted by New Era

This is a false equivalency.

Kesler (23rd, 2003) would be redundant on the Flames, if we already had three players like him in the lineup and another 3-4 in the minors.

Lucic (50th, 2006) would be redundant, if we already had three players like him in the lineup and another 3-4 in the minors.

Holtby (93rd, 2008) would be redundant, if we already had three players like him in the lineup and another 3-4 in the minors.

There's the problem. We have six guys like him for three to four positions. This is like living in Calgary and having a two seat sports car when you have a growing family. You know you need a SUV, and you head down to the local auto mall after promising your wife you'll address the need, but come home with another sports car; this one a convertible.

Sure, you're happy and know all your friends are going to impressed, but your wife is going to rip you a new one when she needs to take the four kids to school or go to the store for groceries. But have no fear, you'll be able to argue that you can trade that sports car for that SUV, or another needed vehicle, when the time comes.

So to sum it up... good players are redundant if you already have good players.

Got about 6 words into your analogy before I lost interest. Hope someone else found it entertaining.