Teacher's Salary Increase Possible

[icecube]

Originally Posted by chubeyr1

I am a CNC machine operator/programmer. I work on machines that cost over 3 million dollars. I need to provide my own tools at work. Currently I have about $25,000 invested in tools. That number rises daily.

So piss off when you talk about costs and expense from your job. Any thing you do you write off! I try to write off my expenses and get grief, teachers though no issue! Screw off when you talk tools of the trade, its not even close!

You want to clothe kids for grad and prom? I could care less. Dress a monkey in a suit for all I care! Good on you for dressing a kid! Educate the kid instead of dressing him! Clothes don't make a man.

Yet apparently you think that!

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[Fuzz]

You would think by this point someone would have come up with a base year one salary, indexed to inflation, and a reasonable yearly raise based on inflation+years of service. They could have a nice spreadsheet, so you could see exactly what you make each year, exactly what the cost to the government is, and never have to have contract salary negotiations again. Is that to simple?

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by ma-skis.com

I'm thinking that Alberta, long term, would be best served by an education system that remained consistent in terms of standards and expectations. Having a system that ebbed and flowed with the boom and bust nature of Alberta's economy would result in very uneven performance depending on the year of graduation or enrolment.

Teachers shouldn't boom in boom times, and they shouldn't bust in bust times. What benefit would be served by allowing education to rise and fall with the economic climate?

But we've already seen that when Alberta booms, the salary of teachers takes a big jump. They're the highest paid teachers in Canada. So are you saying we should go back and redress that 'boom' with salary cuts, or that we should accept a model where teachers' pay spikes when Alberta booms, and stays steady when it busts?

Originally Posted by JohnnyB

As a professional in education, I would respond to a reduction in teacher salary as a result of recession by leaving Alberta and working somewhere else when times are bad. There are teaching jobs all over the world, so why hang around in Alberta if the compensation stops matching the job and the cost of living? I don't know how many would respond the same way as I would, but I hardly think Calgarians suffering through a recession would be pleased to also deal with the quality of education for their children going down due to quality teachers leaving the province.

Where would you go? Teachers are paid less in England, Australia, Germany, Japan, and the cost of living is no lower there. Cost of living is cheaper in many American cities, I suppose, but teachers get paid much less in those place.

I guess what I'm asking is why should we believe that salary cuts would affect the quality of education in Alberta, when there are many examples of countries with education systems as strong as Canada's, where teachers get paid less - often much less - and they have a cost of living as high or higher than Alberta.

[WinnipegFan]

Originally Posted by chubeyr1

I am a CNC machine operator/programmer. I work on machines that cost over 3 million dollars. I need to provide my own tools at work. Currently I have about $25,000 invested in tools. That number rises daily.

So piss off when you talk about costs and expense from your job. Any thing you do you write off! I try to write off my expenses and get grief, teachers though no issue! Screw off when you talk tools of the trade, its not even close!

You want to clothe kids for grad and prom? I could care less. Dress a monkey in a suit for all I care! Good on you for dressing a kid! Educate the kid instead of dressing him! Clothes don't make a man.

Yet apparently you think that!

I want to apologize for whatever teacher you had that has instilled in you this level of anger towards education. I understand you have invested in your tools and I am willing to bet you invested a significant amount into your training and certifications as well. On top of that you are clearly highly capable at your position as you are still employed in a trying time in Alberta. For that I commend you, I only wish you could shelve the anger for a moment in order to understand where I am coming from.

I don't get to write anything off? That is a myth as far as I know, or I need a new tax person. I absolutely do not believe the clothes make the man. Have you seen many teachers rolling around in fancy attire? Swing by a high school, it is not a fashion show. As for tools, I spent damn near 80,000 on three university degrees. This is nat an attempt at gloating, I know you have paid for education to get where you are as well, but I am pointing it out as these are my tools.

As for dressing a student who comes from a challenging financial background, so they can enjoy an evening with their family; an evening that has become ridiculously expensive, ya I will continue to do that. Do I do it with my own money, once in a while, but mostly I do it with my hard work. I fundraise so these kids can celebrate all that they overcame to achieve graduation. For that one day they can be on a somewhat even playing field, at one event. If you want to judge me for that then I am not sure what to say.

I will ask you refrain from the personal "screw you" comments, or swearing. You are better than that, and I think you are targeting me with some anger that is misplaced. Otherwise I am always willing to invite you into my world and have you come speak to the kids about the plight Alberta faces. You'd be surprised they have some great answers. You just have to pass a criminal record check and fill out some paperwork with the CBE.

[Kavvy]

This raises a good point - why don't teachers get to write off supplies they bring to school?

i know many who have invested money for their class - how is that not a work expense?

[calgarygeologist]

Originally Posted by JohnnyB

Increases to fair salaries that match inflation are fair and stability in a public service as important as education is valuable.

As a professional in education, I would respond to a reduction in teacher salary as a result of recession by leaving Alberta and working somewhere else when times are bad. There are teaching jobs all over the world, so why hang around in Alberta if the compensation stops matching the job and the cost of living? I don't know how many would respond the same way as I would, but I hardly think Calgarians suffering through a recession would be pleased to also deal with the quality of education for their children going down due to quality teachers leaving the province.

It is in the best interest of society to keep teachers fairly compensated for their work and allow stable growth and improvement of education. Also, just because demand for business throughout Alberta is down doesn't mean that demand is similarly down for education. Not all industries should drop on principle simply because there is a recession.

I'm not an educator so I'm curious how your pension and seniority would be affected if you left the province or profession for a few years and then came back to teaching.

If your pension was wiped out or you had to return to the lowest possible level of teaching would you really bother leaving if you were facing a salary reduction?

[Flash Walken]

Originally Posted by taco.vidal

Lol. I understood what he meant and Im sure most, if not all others did as well.

You come across poorly.

The problem with the education system:

"This is how you read and write."

"Duh, no it isn't, what do you know about it anyway?"

[JohnnyB]

Originally Posted by calgarygeologist

I'm not an educator so I'm curious how your pension and seniority would be affected if you left the province or profession for a few years and then came back to teaching.

If your pension was wiped out or you had to return to the lowest possible level of teaching would you really bother leaving if you were facing a salary reduction?

That's a good point and I don't know what the effect would be as I'm not a part of that system. If it were a big hit to seniority and pension I'm sure it would cause me to be much more cautious. I suppose that's the double edged sword of the union. Benefits teachers by fighting for and retaining high salaries, benefits the education system by incentivising long-term membership. Hurts both quality teachers and schools by prioritising seniority over skill and ability.

[JohnnyB]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

Where would you go? Teachers are paid less in England, Australia, Germany, Japan, and the cost of living is no lower there. Cost of living is cheaper in many American cities, I suppose, but teachers get paid much less in those place.

I guess what I'm asking is why should we believe that salary cuts would affect the quality of education in Alberta, when there are many examples of countries with education systems as strong as Canada's, where teachers get paid less - often much less - and they have a cost of living as high or higher than Alberta.

It would obviously depend on how much the cuts to teacher salaries were in Alberta but there are many well-paid opportunities in private schooling all around the world for good quality teachers from Canada. If the cuts were sizeable then travel, smaller class sizes and getting paid in a foreign currency while Canada is in recession and the dollar is low would all be pretty attractive. Again, I'm not speaking as an Alberta teacher, so I'm just speculating from the outside.

[Slava]

Originally Posted by Kavvy

This raises a good point - why don't teachers get to write off supplies they bring to school?

i know many who have invested money for their class - how is that not a work expense?

That's one of the things that the federal Liberals said they would bring in while campaigning in the last election. IIRC that was for $1000/year.

[bizaro86]

Originally Posted by JohnnyB

It would obviously depend on how much the cuts to teacher salaries were in Alberta but there are many well-paid opportunities in private schooling all around the world for good quality teachers from Canada. If the cuts were sizeable then travel, smaller class sizes and getting paid in a foreign currency while Canada is in recession and the dollar is low would all be pretty attractive. Again, I'm not speaking as an Alberta teacher, so I'm just speculating from the outside.

We looked into this slightly, as my wife is Canadian educated and has taught IB math and science, which I think would make her emplyable internationally. At the time we looked into it, it seemed like Alberta paid better than international schools in Asia. Maybe the Canadian dollar has changed that.

I'd be very curious what the salary bracket would be for positions like that, especially since my job is very uncertain. By PM if you'd prefer.

[chid]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

It's funny, but every parent I know agrees. They want to see letter grades and rankings. They want real consequences for bad behaviour. And they blame the absence of those things on the schools, and woolly-minded new models of education.

Try having a parent teacher conference with a child who is "failing" or has consistently bad behavior. Most of these parents who SAY they want this, end up being the complete opposite when they realize it is THEIR kid with the issues. Then it becomes a blame game of who is at fault.. and trust me it is never the kid or the family... You can talk to parents who say that, but when it is their own kid that has the issue it is suddenly the school's and teacher's fault for the issue.

[IliketoPuck]

Originally Posted by chubeyr1

I am a CNC machine operator/programmer. I work on machines that cost over 3 million dollars. I need to provide my own tools at work. Currently I have about $25,000 invested in tools. That number rises daily.

So piss off when you talk about costs and expense from your job. Any thing you do you write off! I try to write off my expenses and get grief, teachers though no issue! Screw off when you talk tools of the trade, its not even close!

You want to clothe kids for grad and prom? I could care less. Dress a monkey in a suit for all I care! Good on you for dressing a kid! Educate the kid instead of dressing him! Clothes don't make a man.

Yet apparently you think that!

Your contribution to this thread reads like a Calgary Sun comments section.

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by chid

Try having a parent teacher conference with a child who is "failing" or has consistently bad behavior. Most of these parents who SAY they want this, end up being the complete opposite when they realize it is THEIR kid with the issues. Then it becomes a blame game of who is at fault.. and trust me it is never the kid or the family... You can talk to parents who say that, but when it is their own kid that has the issue it is suddenly the school's and teacher's fault for the issue.

Its funny, because I still remember the parent teacher conferences at the end of the third grade for me, with my folks on one side of the table and the teacher on the other side of the table.

And me in the middle.

And the teacher telling my parents that I wasn't a good student, that I was pretty lazy about getting work done, that I had atrocious hand writing, and was the typical kid doing enough just to get by.

She then said that I had done enough to pass but would need a lot of help next year.

I remember my dad looked at my mom and looked at the teacher and basically said "Flunk him"

My parents figured that if I didn't have the work ethic and didn't know the material well enough that I would struggle later on anyways.

Now the unintended consequence was that I had a growth spurt and became the super villain of the third grade, which was awesome.

[Derek Sutton]

Originally Posted by IliketoPuck

Your contribution to this thread reads like a Calgary Sun comments section.

Are the "supply costs" due to cirriculum requirements? Due the teachers or school get a supply allowance? Does it cost them out of their own pocket because of the paper work involved to claim the expense? Due teachers want to come off as the cool ones so they go out and get fun stuff and for their students?

I have a pretty good friend who teaches grade 7 and 8, he set up a tea stand in his classroom and keeps it fully stocked, he did this at his own expense, is this something that should be covered by the school board? FWIW after Christmas he did start charging his students $1 each time they go for tea. I know he likes to come off as the cool teacher so he spends lots out of his own pocket on the kids.

[Fuzz]

$1 for tea? Dude is making serious bank if he is buying in bulk. Like a drug dealer. Get 'em hooked for free, then jack up the cost!

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by Derek Sutton

Are the "supply costs" due to cirriculum requirements? Due the teachers or school get a supply allowance? Does it cost them out of their own pocket because of the paper work involved to claim the expense? Due teachers want to come off as the cool ones so they go out and get fun stuff and for their students?

I have a pretty good friend who teaches grade 7 and 8, he set up a tea stand in his classroom and keeps it fully stocked, he did this at his own expense, is this something that should be covered by the school board? FWIW after Christmas he did start charging his students $1 each time they go for tea. I know he likes to come off as the cool teacher so he spends lots out of his own pocket on the kids.

I think this is a great question.

Too often I hear Teachers talking about buying stuff for the classroom, I do know one girl that teachers that has told me that anything outside of the normally required classroom stuff is pretty much teacher optional.

She told me that some teachers go absolutely nuts in terms of outfitting and decorating their classsrooms and then get angry when they have to pay for it themselves.

[Cowboy89]

Originally Posted by bizaro86

My wife is a teacher, she teaches high school math (IB and Math 31). Do you think the Principal/Vice Principals at her school (every one of whom has a phys ed degree and was a gym teacher) are likely able to judge whether she's teaching calculus correctly? I would bet a lot of money that none of them could PASS calculus.

Now, teacher's need to be evaluated in some way, and the terrible ones should be removed somehow. But getting admin to do it isn't necessarily the best way.

That's the old "only engineers are qualified to manage engineers" viewpoint. I find the best managers are actually not subject matter experts in the field of which their employees are. You don't need to be an expert to manage experts.

[Major Major]

Originally Posted by Derek Sutton

Are the "supply costs" due to cirriculum requirements? Due the teachers or school get a supply allowance? Does it cost them out of their own pocket because of the paper work involved to claim the expense? Due teachers want to come off as the cool ones so they go out and get fun stuff and for their students?

I have a pretty good friend who teaches grade 7 and 8, he set up a tea stand in his classroom and keeps it fully stocked, he did this at his own expense, is this something that should be covered by the school board? FWIW after Christmas he did start charging his students $1 each time they go for tea. I know he likes to come off as the cool teacher so he spends lots out of his own pocket on the kids.

That sounds like a nightmare. And also a little sketchy in terms of ethics. Your friend has essentially set up a for profit cafe in his classroom. Plus, nothing about that says 'cool' to me.

[bizaro86]

Originally Posted by Cowboy89

That's the old "only engineers are qualified to manage engineers" viewpoint. I find the best managers are actually not subject matter experts in the field of which their employees are. You don't need to be an expert to manage experts.

I think some basic level of comprehension of the subject being taught would be useful for determining whether the person was doing a good job teaching it or not. Can they evaluate classroom management, etc, sure.

But what happens when the teacher explains that the derivative of a constant is also a constant, "because you always add a constant to the end in calculus." Shouldn't it be someone's job to determine whether the people teaching stuff actually know it?

As an aside, I'm an engineer and was in a group of engineers managed by a non-engineer once. It didn't work out. Now, the plural of anecdote isn't data, but I suspect that's common. Not so much because of the managers, but because of the engineers. If you have a bunch of people who've decided they'll only work for another engineer, it's a tough slog to do otherwise. At least in a tight job market, now would involve less threats from senior staff of quitting, I suspect.