[News] Mason Raymond and Brandon Prust on waivers.

[Frank MetaMusil]

Originally Posted by Ozy_Flame

Fair enough, it does appear to be a 2018 buyout in 2016. That said, I don't think it's the right move; I think we just leave him as a warm body / rotational when needed and let his contract completely run out in 2017 - assuming we don't flip him as a cap dump beforehand.

That's weak management though, in any job. A warm body won't help the Flames improve on a 2nd round.

Time to cut bait. Get Hartley a 3 million dollar winger who can help. It's not his fault Raymond isn't off the roster.

[Ozy_Flame]

Originally Posted by Frank MetaMusil

That's weak management though, in any job. A warm body won't help the Flames improve on a 2nd round.

Time to cut bait. Get Hartley a 3 million dollar winger who can help. It's not his fault Raymond isn't off the roster.

What does that even mean? It's his fault Raymond is on the roster.

[Calgary4LIfe]

I think Treliving is getting a bit too much hate for this FA signings.

When Calgary signed Engelland, Hiller and Raymond, they were essentially entering their rebuild. They had to over-pay in a market that sees UFAs overpaid as it is.

I liked the Engelland signing - he is actually a decent everyday defender who provides both a physical presence and a bit of a deterrent at the same time. Apparently his leadership is phenomenal as well. He just filled a lot of holes on the team. I still like Engelland on this team.

Hiller - anyone really upset with Hiller? Well, his game fell off, but he was a pretty good goalie last season. I have always preferred Ramo, and I don't like Hiller at all - but even as a critic I can't for one instant think he was a terrible signing. This team would not have made the post season last year without him (and without Ramo).

Raymond - I didn't like the signing then, I still don't like it - but I always understood why it was made. Looking at the team, did anyone really project Gaudreau, Monahan and Hudler to perform the way they have? Offence was what was keeping Trelving up at night. I didn't want to sign Raymond in part because I didn't think he was all that good and was the kind of streaky player that makes fans upset - especially at that price - but throughout the contract he has scored at a pretty good rate for his ice time. He just offers little else. If he was a more solid penalty killer, then you could start seeing some value there. I just feel really sorry for him - tough for him being a 'hometown kid' of sorts (Cochrane) who's family is extremely well known in Alberta, and to be the player everyone wishes wasn't here.

Treliving kept all the terms to 3 years or less. Overpaid? Every single one of them were. That is what happens in a rebuild - you have to overpay the overpaid UFAs to fill spots on your team temporarily.

Setoguchi - again, not sure why people would get annoyed the Seto signing. It was throwing low risk darts at the board. If he panned out, it would have been a genius move. If it didn't - well, did it really hurt the team? I also look at it this way - Setoguchi was a good example for the kids of what NOT to do and to avoid certain traps on the team. Maybe for that reason alone it was worth it.

As for what Trelving should do now - I don't think Howard is the answer. There is probably not a goalie that tries as hard as Howard. His compete level is through the roof. Second, third and fourth chances - he keeps trying. He is very Kipper-esque in that way. However, he is small and really not that great. If he was not so athletic and didn't have that high compete, he would stink. He does not have an average contract. It would be acquiring an overpaid player with term - tough to swallow.

I would rather the Flames wait for someone like Ward (who I don't think is that great - really just another stop-gap) and sign him for cheaper (or at least, less term). Maybe spend more assets on someone more proven. Maybe take on Bernier for his last year - I would imagine he would be cheap, and the risk may be palatable. Heck, scour the KHL/other European leagues for any quality tenders.

I would just hate if the Flames spend assets on a sub-par goalie with term who then becomes a huge problem down the line. Count me in as much rather just re-sign Ramo. His numbers - outside of the stretch of games before he got waived - are actually decent. He will lose more games than he steals in a season (unfortunately), but at least he keeps you in most games and gives you the chance to win. Until there is a clear upgrade - not a 'I think this guy can rebound' - just stick with what you know if what you aren't as sure about is going to cost you assets today, or become a problem for you down the road.

[DeluxeMoustache]

^ On the other hand, there is arguably guessing vs. educated guessing. That is why 30 guys get GM jobs with huge stakes and there are thousands of Internet board armchair GMs

[crapshoot]

Originally Posted by Frank MetaMusil

It's not his fault Raymond isn't off the roster.

Holy double negative Batman!

[1qqaaz]

Originally Posted by Calgary4LIfe

I think Treliving is getting a bit too much hate for this FA signings.

When Calgary signed Engelland, Hiller and Raymond, they were essentially entering their rebuild. They had to over-pay in a market that sees UFAs overpaid as it is.

I liked the Engelland signing - he is actually a decent everyday defender who provides both a physical presence and a bit of a deterrent at the same time. Apparently his leadership is phenomenal as well. He just filled a lot of holes on the team. I still like Engelland on this team.

Hiller - anyone really upset with Hiller? Well, his game fell off, but he was a pretty good goalie last season. I have always preferred Ramo, and I don't like Hiller at all - but even as a critic I can't for one instant think he was a terrible signing. This team would not have made the post season last year without him (and without Ramo).

Raymond - I didn't like the signing then, I still don't like it - but I always understood why it was made. Looking at the team, did anyone really project Gaudreau, Monahan and Hudler to perform the way they have? Offence was what was keeping Trelving up at night. I didn't want to sign Raymond in part because I didn't think he was all that good and was the kind of streaky player that makes fans upset - especially at that price - but throughout the contract he has scored at a pretty good rate for his ice time. He just offers little else. If he was a more solid penalty killer, then you could start seeing some value there. I just feel really sorry for him - tough for him being a 'hometown kid' of sorts (Cochrane) who's family is extremely well known in Alberta, and to be the player everyone wishes wasn't here.

Treliving kept all the terms to 3 years or less. Overpaid? Every single one of them were. That is what happens in a rebuild - you have to overpay the overpaid UFAs to fill spots on your team temporarily.

Setoguchi - again, not sure why people would get annoyed the Seto signing. It was throwing low risk darts at the board. If he panned out, it would have been a genius move. If it didn't - well, did it really hurt the team? I also look at it this way - Setoguchi was a good example for the kids of what NOT to do and to avoid certain traps on the team. Maybe for that reason alone it was worth it.

As for what Trelving should do now - I don't think Howard is the answer. There is probably not a goalie that tries as hard as Howard. His compete level is through the roof. Second, third and fourth chances - he keeps trying. He is very Kipper-esque in that way. However, he is small and really not that great. If he was not so athletic and didn't have that high compete, he would stink. He does not have an average contract. It would be acquiring an overpaid player with term - tough to swallow.

I would rather the Flames wait for someone like Ward (who I don't think is that great - really just another stop-gap) and sign him for cheaper (or at least, less term). Maybe spend more assets on someone more proven. Maybe take on Bernier for his last year - I would imagine he would be cheap, and the risk may be palatable. Heck, scour the KHL/other European leagues for any quality tenders.

I would just hate if the Flames spend assets on a sub-par goalie with term who then becomes a huge problem down the line. Count me in as much rather just re-sign Ramo. His numbers - outside of the stretch of games before he got waived - are actually decent. He will lose more games than he steals in a season (unfortunately), but at least he keeps you in most games and gives you the chance to win. Until there is a clear upgrade - not a 'I think this guy can rebound' - just stick with what you know if what you aren't as sure about is going to cost you assets today, or become a problem for you down the road.

You completely changed my view on Treliving's FA signings in one post. Congrats.

[flambers]

Raymond will clear, I will be curious to see if they assign him.

[Dr. Doom]

I have no issues with Treliving's signings, Raymond included.
He took flyers on bargain bin guys that were stop-gap measures more than anything.
The issue comes where he didn't drive the prices down accordingly.
On Tim and Sid last night they could not believe Raymond was earning 3+ mil.
That was ridiculous then and absurd now.
I just hope this isn't a sign of poor bargaining power in contract negotiations, especially some of the doozers coming up.

[getbak]

In 2013-14 Raymond put up 45 points in Toronto. That was the same number of points as Cammalleri, Vermette, Shattenkirk, and Brassard. Of those players, only Cammalleri missed a significant number of games.

Brassard and Cammalleri both signed 5 year, $5M AAV contracts that summer. Vermette's AAV is $3.75M. Shattenkirk is a defenceman, but he has a $4.25M AAV.


Raymond's contract was fair value at the time. If anything, he took a slight home town discount. Sure, he hasn't played up to the contract since coming here, but it wasn't a bad signing at the time.

[PeteMoss]

Originally Posted by getbak

In 2013-14 Raymond put up 45 points in Toronto. That was the same number of points as Cammalleri, Vermette, Shattenkirk, and Brassard. Of those players, only Cammalleri missed a significant number of games.

Brassard and Cammalleri both signed 5 year, $5M AAV contracts that summer. Vermette's AAV is $3.75M. Shattenkirk is a defenceman, but he has a $4.25M AAV.


Raymond's contract was fair value at the time. If anything, he took a slight home town discount. Sure, he hasn't played up to the contract since coming here, but it wasn't a bad signing at the time.

There's more to a players career than one year.

Brassard is a centre (way more valuable) and younger.
Cammalleri has a much better history.
I don't even think Shattenkirk was a UFA at that point so he's in a completely different situation.

Raymond was a guy who couldn't get a contract a year earlier and went to the Leafs on a PTO. There was no need to give the guy the 3 years.

[Anduril]

Originally Posted by PeteMoss

There's more to a players career than one year.

Brassard is a centre (way more valuable) and younger.
Cammalleri has a much better history.
I don't even think Shattenkirk was a UFA at that point so he's in a completely different situation.

Raymond was a guy who couldn't get a contract a year earlier and went to the Leafs on a PTO. There was no need to give the guy the 3 years.

You have to consider the otherside of it as well. As much as we'd all love to sign some of the riskier UFAs to 1 year prove it deals to minimize risk, they have their own ask. Raymond has generally been a 30-40+ point guy in his career, hence why we could sign him for 3M instead of 5 and I'd imagine part of that is the 3 years instead of more.

[Buff]

Originally Posted by Calgary4LIfe

good points on contracts Treliving signed

Originally Posted by getbak

In 2013-14 Raymond put up 45 points in Toronto. That was the same number of points as Cammalleri, Vermette, Shattenkirk, and Brassard. Of those players, only Cammalleri missed a significant number of games.

Brassard and Cammalleri both signed 5 year, $5M AAV contracts that summer. Vermette's AAV is $3.75M. Shattenkirk is a defenceman, but he has a $4.25M AAV.


Raymond's contract was fair value at the time. If anything, he took a slight home town discount. Sure, he hasn't played up to the contract since coming here, but it wasn't a bad signing at the time.

Just to add to your comment on him not playing up to his contract. I don't think he would be living up to his contract if he signed for only $1M per year. Last year... maybe, at times. This year? No way. Maybe he brings something to the dressing room that we fans don't see but his on ice performance leaves quite a bit to be desired.

Originally Posted by PeteMoss

There's more to a players career than one year.

Brassard is a centre (way more valuable) and younger.
Cammalleri has a much better history.
I don't even think Shattenkirk was a UFA at that point so he's in a completely different situation.

Raymond was a guy who couldn't get a contract a year earlier and went to the Leafs on a PTO. There was no need to give the guy the 3 years.

He has had a couple of comparable years, but he certainly isn't consistent year in and year out. Heck, even game in and game out his consistency isn't there.

However, I still don't think a 3 year contract was out of the question. At that time they wanted veterans to take up ice time so the young guys weren't thrown into a situation where they were making too many mistakes because they were in over their heads.

He's not going to prevent Treliving from signing Gaudreau or Monahan and he'll be gone in time to sign Bennett, if not sooner.

He doesn't do much to help the team win now, and his role is no longer needed, in the eyes of many fans, but at the time of the signing it was a good idea. In the world of sports you take gambles. Sometimes the safe bets don't turn out well, and sometimes the huge gambles make a GM look like a genius. Not every move that a GM makes is going to be applauded by everybody, not at the time of the move, or years later.

[Vulcan]

Originally Posted by flambers

Raymond will clear, I will be curious to see if they assign him.

I believe they need to assign him as unless someone goes on the IR list they don't have roster room.

[saillias]

Originally Posted by Calgary4LIfe

Raymond - I didn't like the signing then, I still don't like it - but I always understood why it was made. Looking at the team, did anyone really project Gaudreau, Monahan and Hudler to perform the way they have? Offence was what was keeping Trelving up at night. I didn't want to sign Raymond in part because I didn't think he was all that good and was the kind of streaky player that makes fans upset - especially at that price - but throughout the contract he has scored at a pretty good rate for his ice time. He just offers little else. If he was a more solid penalty killer, then you could start seeing some value there. I just feel really sorry for him - tough for him being a 'hometown kid' of sorts (Cochrane) who's family is extremely well known in Alberta, and to be the player everyone wishes wasn't here.

Very good points. If anyone every wonders why Calgary boy Mike Green has no interest in coming home, just look at how things can go for the Raymonds, Colbornes, Russells etc. When fans turn on a local player no doubt it reaches the family.

[Robbob]

I have never really liked Raymond, although he had that first week when he was here and scored a hat-trick on Edmonton. That was probably the height of the Raymond era in Calgary. Kind of puts him in the same category as All star Petr Buzek. All I remember him for is scoring a couple goals on the Oilers.

[getbak]

In order to activate Ferland, they'll need to send either Granlund or Raymond down.

They could also send down both and recall a d-man to replace Wideman. That will probably depend on how long Wideman is gone.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by getbak

In order to activate Ferland, they'll need to send either Granlund or Raymond down.

They could also send down both and recall a d-man to replace Wideman. That will probably depend on how long Wideman is gone.

Raymond being a winger, and Granlund being a centre (sort of) with no other centres sitting on the bench, means Raymond goes. Unless, of course, they move Bennett or Colborne to centre. Some people would be happy if the former happened, with Monahan, Bennett, Backlund and Stajan down the middle. But then you have to move Granlund to the wing and between him and Raymond at wing, it's kind of a tossup IMO.

[flambers]

Originally Posted by getbak

In order to activate Ferland, they'll need to send either Granlund or Raymond down.

They could also send down both and recall a d-man to replace Wideman. That will probably depend on how long Wideman is gone.

Last time Raymond was waived, he cleared and stayed on the roster.

Curious if they will send down Granlund or will they actually assign Raymond to the farm.

[FeyWest]

Originally Posted by Dr. Doom

I have no issues with Treliving's signings, Raymond included.
He took flyers on bargain bin guys that were stop-gap measures more than anything.
The issue comes where he didn't drive the prices down accordingly.
On Tim and Sid last night they could not believe Raymond was earning 3+ mil.
That was ridiculous then and absurd now.
I just hope this isn't a sign of poor bargaining power in contract negotiations, especially some of the doozers coming up.

Backlund contract, Brodie contract, even the Gio contract is decent value if he can sustain his play even through half of it, Hamilton contract. These all were contracts there was great debate over and everyone saying theyd be happy with X @ Y term and all of these contracts were brought under these expectations, in Brodie's case well under. I'm not concerned with his contract negotiating skills.

When it comes to the UFA market you have to always try to beat out the other teams too so it's a lot harder to get good value contracts majority of the time.

[FeyWest]

Originally Posted by flambers

Last time Raymond was waived, he cleared and stayed on the roster.

Curious if they will send down Granlund or will they actually assign Raymond to the farm.

Well this time we are in a bit of a different situation regarding roster size. Ferland is back and Wideman counts towards the roster on suspension so we will have to send one down regardless and another so we can add another D-man in the case Wideman is on suspension for any appreciable amount of time (5+ games in my mind)