[Rumour] Flames still trying to re-sign Russell

[GreenLantern2814]

Originally Posted by dammage79

Remove "mediocre" from the post and you have Russell, Iggy, Bourque was two years too late.

It's not fair to compare the actions of a team in the middle /end of their contending window to one in year 3 of a rebuild.

[Bend it like Bourgeois]

Originally Posted by Sylvanfan

I do like Kris Russell. But the Flames have to tread carefully here. Next year they have a really expensive D core and 3 guys who will be really overpaid. If the cap stays stagnant things will be tight.

That's true, though I think dealing with the expensive d beyond Russell has to happen either way. The flames need a 3-4 guy in Russell's spot and that player is going to make 4m ish.

I don't know if Russell is the right guy, but I hope the problem they solve is the 3 overpaid guys at the bottom.

[Lanny_McDonald]

Originally Posted by Bend it like Bourgeois

That's true, though I think dealing with the expensive d beyond Russell has to happen either way. The flames need a 3-4 guy in Russell's spot and that player is going to make 4m ish.

I don't know if Russell is the right guy, but I hope the problem they solve is the 3 overpaid guys at the bottom.

I'll repost this again to show that Russell is too expensive.

Every dollar overpaid to one player has to come out of the budget elsewhere. You really need to see the numbers in action to get a better understanding of what a few dollars here and there means. Take a $70M budget as an example, which is a fair number to use considering the cap and the space you need for call-ups for injuries and such. I would think a healthy budget breakdown is going to look like $40M on forwards, $24M on defense, and $6M on goaltending. So something like this, taking names out the mix.

$7M-$7M-$5M
$3M-$5M-$3M
$2M-$3M-$2M
$1M-$1M-$1M
$.75M-$.75M

$7M-$5M
$4M-$3M
$2M-$1.5M
.75M

$5M
$1M

That projection actually comes out $70.75M, or just a hair over budget. When you start plugging names and numbers into the matrix you start to see how actual dollars and cutting corners here and there mean all the difference in the world. We'll look at the defense as the best example, because we are about to hit the crunch there immediately, and because the balance in the Flames forward lines is so completely messed up (Treliving has his work cut out for him).

Giordano ($4.0M), Hamilton ($5.75)
Wideman ($5.25M), Brodie ($4.65)
Engelland ($2.92M), Russell ($2.6M)
Wotherspoon ($.925M)

Total: $26.1M or $2.1 over budget. Now, try and work those numbers knowing that Giordano is asking $9M! You have to hope he'll come around and take that $7M number, but you are already paying Hamilton $.75M over budget for that pairing, so $6.25M is what you can really afford. On the 2nd pair you have to lose Wideman outright. You can't afford that salary, especially when Brodie is $.65M over what you hope to pay. So a defenseman to play with Brodie now has to be a $2.35M player. On the third pair you have to get rid of Engelland all together and replace him with a guy that is at a Wotherspoon level salary. Then you have to replace Wotherspoon with a guy that is cheaper yet. So to get to the numbers you think are going to be needed your budget on defense is going to look more like this.

Giordano ($7M), Hamilton ($5.75M)
Brodie ($4.65M), Player X ($2.25M)
Russell ($2.6M), Wotherspoon $(.925M)
Morrison ($.925M)

You are being forced to lose Wideman and Engelland, and bringing in a defenseman of a substantially lesser value on your second pair because of moving a few dollars to another guy. See, a couple hundred grand here and there makes a pretty substantial difference. So when you over-pay a guy like Bouma $300-500K, that means it has to come out of a player somewhere else, and can result in a much lesser player than maybe you had hoped to have in the lineup. This also shows the importance of always having cheap young talent rolling through the organization and keeping the upper level salaries in check.

To update this post a bit and show the accuracy of the premise, Giordano did sign for just under the $7M budget number, so almost balances out what Hamilton is being paid. They are still a shade over budget for their top pair. With Brodie on the 2nd pair as a budget number that means the dollars available are limited. When you add in Wideman's $5.25M and Engelland's $2.9M we are seriously screwed. Our salary structure is boo-foo and Treliving has to fix that before committing more dollars to players with diminishing skill sets like Russell. The best thing the Flames could do is to trade for some young guys that can play in the bottom four defenders that are going to be cheap or controllable over the foreseeable future. The budget demands it.

[CroFlames]

Lot's of negativity towards Russell in this thread that I just don't understand.

Are people expecting him to play like a #1 or 2 D-man, but get paid as a 5-6 D-man? Russell does his job well, and for the right price, I'd be very happy to resign him. I'd also be open to trading him if you could get a peice that can step into the forward lineup right now.

[Erick Estrada]

You can't have your cake and eat it too. Treliving didn't have a gun to his head to sign Gio to a terrible 6 x $7 million deal but he did it and he has to realize that the reality of handing out those big contracts is that it's going to come at the expense of losing a few depth players that you would have ideally liked to keep in the fold.

[Demetric]

There is definitely plenty of room to improve on Russell

[MrMastodonFarm]

Originally Posted by CroFlames

Lot's of negativity towards Russell in this thread that I just don't understand.

Are people expecting him to play like a #1 or 2 D-man, but get paid as a 5-6 D-man? Russell does his job well, and for the right price, I'd be very happy to resign him. I'd also be open to trading him if you could get a peice that can step into the forward lineup right now.

The NHL has a salary cap. Russell's "right price" probably doesn't fit into the Flames cap. It really as simple as that. With big contracts to Giordano, Hamilton and Brodie on the books for a good length of time he has to go.

[DoubleF]

I wonder if Treliving is looking to see if he can sign Russell to a reasonable contract (w/o NMC/NTC) and then trade him for more?

ie:

Option A: Sell Russell as a rental to a contender who will pay premium for a good depth guy no contract that doesn't handcuff them/flexibility to negotiate their own contract if they want.

Option B: Sell Russell to a near contender/non-contender with a signed contract as vet presence long term vs risk he walks. (Let's not forget, he wears an A for us. He could be good guidance on a younger team)

Treliving could be looking at adding value and not taking Russell's value at face value. (ie: Refine before shipping out and collecting the premium). My guess and thoughts anyways.

[Major Major]

Originally Posted by MrMastodonFarm

The NHL has a salary cap. Russell's "right price" probably doesn't fit into the Flames cap. It really as simple as that. With big contracts to Giordano, Hamilton and Brodie on the books for a good length of time he has to go.

Sorry but are we presuming to know what the Russell's ask is? I agree with what you say, but it is possible to look at this situation with an open mind rather than having a fixed opinion based on imagined information.

There are three variables at play:
Flames position at trade deadline relative to the playoffs.
Russell's contract demands.
Trade value.

We know none of these things right now. I can tell you this though, there are viable scenarios where he is extended prior to trade deadline, traded at or before trade deadline, retained past deadline and lost as a UFA (the horror), and retained beyond deadline but re-signed at some point.

[Erick Estrada]

I believe the reason Treliving has tried hard to move Wideman is so he could re-sign Russell but that hasn't worked out.

[Da_Chief]

There were several occasions when it was Russell who was pinned in his own zone vs the Oilers the other night.

I don't hate him but he is just not a good enough dman. Paying him anything over 2 mill or playing him over 12-13 minutes a night is a mistake.

[heep223]

Originally Posted by New Era

I'll repost this again to show that Russell is too expensive.

Every dollar overpaid to one player has to come out of the budget elsewhere. You really need to see the numbers in action to get a better understanding of what a few dollars here and there means. Take a $70M budget as an example, which is a fair number to use considering the cap and the space you need for call-ups for injuries and such. I would think a healthy budget breakdown is going to look like $40M on forwards, $24M on defense, and $6M on goaltending. So something like this, taking names out the mix.

$7M-$7M-$5M
$3M-$5M-$3M
$2M-$3M-$2M
$1M-$1M-$1M
$.75M-$.75M

$7M-$5M
$4M-$3M
$2M-$1.5M
.75M

$5M
$1M

Giordano ($4.0M), Hamilton ($5.75)
Wideman ($5.25M), Brodie ($4.65)
Engelland ($2.92M), Russell ($2.6M)
Wotherspoon ($.925M)

Total: $26.1M or $2.1 over budget.

To update this post a bit and show the accuracy of the premise, Giordano did sign for just under the $7M budget number, so almost balances out what Hamilton is being paid. They are still a shade over budget for their top pair. With Brodie on the 2nd pair as a budget number that means the dollars available are limited. When you add in Wideman's $5.25M and Engelland's $2.9M we are seriously screwed.

This is overly dramatic, "we are seriously screwed". Uh no, 1.5 years from now we have the long term core of Gio, Brodie and Hamilton locked up pretty much on par with other good teams top 3 in terms of AAV. When Wideman, Engelland and Smid are off the books then the Flames are fine. By then some D prospects can fill into the bottom pair for cheap. We knew that Engelland and Smid were just filler for a few years and the Wideman contract was inherited. It's actually perfect the way it is IMO, those guys will fill in for the rest of this year and next year, which gives our D prospects time to develop. When they're ready to make the jump the team should be a force in the West (2 years) and have a bunch of salary coming off the books with which to sign that last FA or two up front.

If you can sign Russell for say 4 years at $3M, you absolutely do it because he is an excellent #4 guy with Hamilton. Fits right into your "ideal" structure above.

What am I missing that screws the Flames? Aside from getting into a debate on whether Russell is a #4 or #5 guy, which I don't want to do. If you don't think he's #4 quality then yeah you don't sign him.

[Poe969]

we can only speculate on what Russell is asking right no but I think it's safe to assume that it's more than what he's making right now.

BT has said that he's thinking future and considering the Flames are where they are in the standings makes me think that they'll be moving down before they move up.

I don't see many guys like Russell available at the deadline this year. He's mobile and offensive but he's a shot blocking machine. He's a good player especially in the #4-5 spot but with the money the Flames have tied up in the back end and the prospects in the system and potential available UFA's it just doesn't make sense to keep him (unless he's willing to take a pay cut).

The one other variable here is Wideman. I think if the team could move Wideman, they'd be willing to re-sign Russell (providing he's looking for similar dollars to his current contract).

[CroFlames]

Originally Posted by MrMastodonFarm

The NHL has a salary cap. Russell's "right price" probably doesn't fit into the Flames cap. It really as simple as that. With big contracts to Giordano, Hamilton and Brodie on the books for a good length of time he has to go.

The NHL has a salary cap? Since when?!

[1qqaaz]

The guys on the morning show made what I thought was a pretty good point.

If you're going to have a highly-paid top 4, then the 5-6 guys should be guys who are still on their rookie contracts. The logic was that winning teams have many star players who are paid a lot. On the other side, there are people on rookie contracts that are still serviceable.

Once the Smid and Engelland contracts are up, I think the Flames will be in a fine spot cap-wise in terms of defense. As long as they actually play their young guys (maybe Kylington, Kulak, Wootherspoon, Andersson, Hickey will be ready to play 5-6 spots by then).

Plus, if the Flames draft well this year, they could have a lot of forward potential moving forward as well. I don't think the Flames are "screwed", I just think they need to wait until Smid/Engellend contracts are up to really move forward.

In the mean time, hopefully they don't sign anymore bad contracts.

[Bend it like Bourgeois]

Originally Posted by New Era

To update this post a bit and show the accuracy of the premise, Giordano did sign for just under the $7M budget number, so almost balances out what Hamilton is being paid. They are still a shade over budget for their top pair. With Brodie on the 2nd pair as a budget number that means the dollars available are limited. When you add in Wideman's $5.25M and Engelland's $2.9M we are seriously screwed. Our salary structure is boo-foo and Treliving has to fix that before committing more dollars to players with diminishing skill sets like Russell. The best thing the Flames could do is to trade for some young guys that can play in the bottom four defenders that are going to be cheap or controllable over the foreseeable future. The budget demands it.

That salary framework is probably about right. To me that's not the point re: Russell.

You've declared a 3m player in spot 4 (it's probably a bit more but whatever). Look at the next 3 guys and that's where the flames salary is screwed. My point is fix the 5-6-7 roles and get the #4 defenseman they need. Don't cheap out on a key role to save dead weight below. That's just dumb.

I think the flames need a player who can play 22 mins a night and not suck for about 4m a year. If that's Russell on a 3 year deal I hope they pay him. If treliving doesn't think he's the right guy then deal him and figure out how to get the replacement.

[Ozy_Flame]

Originally Posted by Poe969

we can only speculate on what Russell is asking right no but I think it's safe to assume that it's more than what he's making right now.

BT has said that he's thinking future and considering the Flames are where they are in the standings makes me think that they'll be moving down before they move up.

I don't see many guys like Russell available at the deadline this year. He's mobile and offensive but he's a shot blocking machine. He's a good player especially in the #4-5 spot but with the money the Flames have tied up in the back end and the prospects in the system and potential available UFA's it just doesn't make sense to keep him (unless he's willing to take a pay cut).

The one other variable here is Wideman. I think if the team could move Wideman, they'd be willing to re-sign Russell (providing he's looking for similar dollars to his current contract).

I think if the team can move Smid, it opens things up almost as much as Wideman does.

[Pierre "Monster" McGuire]

Russell's the worst possession defenseman on the team. That's a fact.

He has more than a bit of trouble getting the puck out of his own zone, isn't big enough to muscle most forwards off the puck, and makes poor decisions often resulting in turnovers.

The only reason he's become the league's best shot-blocker is because that's the unfortunate direction his game has evolved. That contributes to his label of a heart-and-soul player, whereas players who are always in the other team's end don't often get that label.

Reality is, we may not be better off with a young player, but at least there's room for improvement. Russell, on the other hand, has been on a steady decline in terms of possession numbers. Plus how much can that body of his take?

It's time to cut ties with him, IMO.

[SuperMatt18]

I am surprised that a team that is putting an emphasis on size wants to resign Russell.

His lack of size is a big issue in the defensive zone in the western conference, and he often gets pinned deep in his own zone on the cycle because of it.

He's probably great in the room, and blocks a lot of shots, but he isn't worth the $3million+ that he is going to want.

[CroFlames]

Originally Posted by Pierre "Monster" McGuire

Russell's the worst possession defenseman on the team. That's a fact.

He has more than a bit of trouble getting the puck out of his own zone, isn't big enough to muscle most forwards off the puck, and makes poor decisions often resulting in turnovers.

The only reason he's become the league's best shot-blocker is because that's the unfortunate direction his game has evolved. That contributes to his label of a heart-and-soul player, whereas players who are always in the other team's end don't often get that label.

Reality is, we may not be better off with a young player, but at least there's room for improvement. Russell, on the other hand, has been on a steady decline in terms of possession number. Plus how much can that body of his take?

It's time to cut ties with him, IMO.

With Wideman on the way out (sooner or later) if you move Russell as well, all of a sudden the deep d-corps is not deep anymore. You basically are left with 3 good defencemen.

At least you know what you have in Russell. Maybe you could pull wool over another GM's eyes with his sexy shot blocking stats and make a 1 for 1 trade for another top 4 D-man, but I'm not so sure. We were all shocked as hell at the Johansen-Jones trade because they are so rare.

We could be Oiler fans and postulate trading our scraps for other clubs' stars? Russell for OEL anyone?