Flames Player Lists: Core Pieces, Support Pieces & Expendable

[Iggy Snipe]

Originally Posted by Finger Cookin

That's some impressive cherry picking.

1) Part of two seasons (this season, and after he arrived via trade) and a shortened lockout season != almost 6 seasons

2) His Goal/G average prorates to 10 goals per season, not 7.5

3) His cap hit is $3.125M, not $3.5M. In a league where an average cap hit is $2.65M ($61 cap median/23 man roster), less than $500K over the average does not make a contract some untradable albatross

So if the average cap hit is 2.65M, is Stajan an above average player? No he is not. Also, he has one goal this season. He is overpaid and under performs. He is the most expendable Flame forward IMO.

[Street Pharmacist]

Originally Posted by Iggy Snipe

So if the average cap hit is 2.65M, is Stajan an above average player? No he is not. Also, he has one goal this season. He is overpaid and under performs. He is the most expendable Flame forward IMO.

Yes, yes he is an above average player

[Iggy Snipe]

Originally Posted by Street Pharmacist

Yes, yes he is an above average player

How so? Good on face-offs? I would like to know what a below average forward in the NHL looks like. Stajan is definitely below average talent wise. Did you watch the Islanders/ Flames game?

Come on. He is definitely a below average player and the numbers don't lie. Im sure he is a great guy in the room, but that only goes so far.

[thymebalm]

Inner core:
Giordano-Brodie <- It's exactly the duo you are trying to build. It's done. now replicate it, twice.
Monahan-Gaudreau <- The young proven talent. Cornerstones to future scoring.

Outer core:
Hudler-Bouma
Russell

Everyone else needs to continue to find their role on the club or be prepared to not be in the long term plans. I can see guys like Bennett, Colborne, Jooris, Granlund, Backlund all pushing into that outer core, but really, the surefire pieces are those first 4.

I have lots of hope for several of the prospects we have in the system, but we'll have to wait and see with Baertschi, Knight, Ferland, Jankowski, Hanowski, Arnold, Culkin, Kulak, Wotherspoon etc. Might be some keepers in there still.

[Finger Cookin]

Originally Posted by Iggy Snipe

So if the average cap hit is 2.65M, is Stajan an above average player? No he is not. Also, he has one goal this season. He is overpaid and under performs. He is the most expendable Flame forward IMO.

He's close enough to average that the difference doesn't matter. Discussing him in the context of his salary and contract doesn't matter.

[the2bears]

Originally Posted by Iggy Snipe

How so? Good on face-offs? I would like to know what a below average forward in the NHL looks like. Stajan is definitely below average talent wise. Did you watch the Islanders/ Flames game?

Come on. He is definitely a below average player and the numbers don't lie. Im sure he is a great guy in the room, but that only goes so far.

What numbers? If you claim he's below average, show the numbers you use to come to this conclusion.

[PugnaciousIntern]

Originally Posted by the2bears

What numbers? If you claim he's below average, show the numbers you use to come to this conclusion.

He's also reliable. That's so often overlooked. Not reliably outstanding such as Crosby, but you know what you get when you send him over the boards, and coaches need those players.

[Geeoff]

Originally Posted by Eric Vail

The general consensus around here is that Iginla should have been traded earlier while his value was high.

The current general consensus sounds like Giordano is considered an untouchable and cannot be traded.

Am I misinformed on these two statements?
Why the difference?

The biggest difference is that Iginla was the captain when we were declining and Giordano is the captain when we are on the rise. Flames obviously needed to rebuild and management was unwilling to do so. We're now at a point where it might be harmful to trade our best players for picks and prospects see Oilers, Edmonton.

[RoughRiderRowdy]

Originally Posted by Iggy Snipe

So if the average cap hit is 2.65M, is Stajan an above average player? No he is not. Also, he has one goal this season. He is overpaid and under performs. He is the most expendable Flame forward IMO.

Stajan needs to be released

[heep223]

Originally Posted by RoughRiderRowdy

Stajan needs to be released

You want us to become Oilers 2.0 with kids running the show and no vets to show them how to be responsible professionals. Good plan.

Stajan's play on the fourth line and his role in the dressing room and as a teammate and mentor is worth his contract and roster spot, and while I guess anyone with a keyboard can post anything, IMO it's hardly debatable.

[GoFlamesGo1989]

Originally Posted by heep223

You want us to become Oilers 2.0 with kids running the show and no vets to show them how to be responsible professionals. Good plan.

Stajan's play on the fourth line and his role in the dressing room and as a teammate and mentor is worth his contract and roster spot, and while I guess anyone with a keyboard can post anything, IMO it's hardly debatable.

I honestly don't by us becoming the Oilers if we got rid of players like Stajan and GlenX. With this coaching staff and our top four D we have enough veteran leadership to build around our young up and coming forward core.

The fact is Edmonton is no good. Not that they don't have veteran leadership.

[GreenLantern2814]

Say this team is being built in mould of the Chicago Blackhawks. What have they got?

Two franchise forwards - Kane and Toews.

Franchise D - Keith

Two wingers that would be franchise players on any other team - Hossa and Sharp.

Depth: Seabrook, Hjalmarsson, Oduya, Rozival. Five members of their defence have won a Stanley Cup together.

Goalie that won't break your heart - Crawford may not ever win a Vezina or be the best in the league. But he can win a Cup.

How do we stack up?

Two franchise forwards - Monahan and Gaudreau. Is it too early to call them that? It's certainly too early to expect franchise forward production from them, but when they're finished cooking? #wreckthisleague (sorry...). Never mind we could have a third in Bennett, but I'll hold off on anointing him until he plays a real NHL game.

Franchise D - I think you can win a Stanley Cup if Mark Giordano is your #1 and playing at this level night after night. Although he's on the wrong side of 30, d-men routinely play into their mid-late thirties when they're of his calibre. I wouldn't think twice about extending him to the tune of 4/$36. The great thing is, Brodie looks like he could be even better.

Supplementary depth - Forwards

Right now, we've got Hudler. Hudler wouldn't be a franchise forward on another team. He's very useful here, and I'd be open to an extension if there's no bonafide first-line winger available in free agency or trade. Ideally, he'd be replaced by our version of the Marian Hossa signing, but teams hate letting talent get away, so we may not have much choice.

I do think we stole Joe Colborne, but I think he's a 3rd liner on a championship team. A real mismatch for most 3rd pairings - he can overpower the slower, more physical guys, and skate away from the smaller skilled D. I don't think he should be counted on for core production, however.

Supplementary depth - Defense

Russell and Wideman have been phenomenal for us. And if they were your 5/6 pairing, I think you're doing alright. Wideman may prove too costly for what his value is on a contender, but I'd extend Russell again because I think if you pay him Smid money to be a #5 or #6, you can live with that. Neither are true top 4 guys on a contending team.

Smid and Engelland are barely above replacement level. I like the heart of both, but no team can win a stanley cup with those two as the 5/6 making $7m combined. Diaz and Potter are warm bodies.

Goaltending that won't break your heart - I like Hiller. I like that we have a goalie who wears #1 again. I like his awesome mask. I like his red yellow and black Koho gear. Could you win it all with him? Maybe - it certainly wouldn't be like winning a Cup with Michael Leighton, and if Chicago can win it all with Anti Niemi and his .891 save%, I can't say Hiller is a bad option in net. But I have a feeling this is Gillies' crease in three years.

Ultimately, I think our centre depth is going to be what defines us. Monahan and Bennett are great. On most teams, the third line centre is not as good as Mikael Backlund. Say the 4th line C is Mark Jankowski. Mark Jankowski who is 6 ft 3 and 186 lbs now, only getting bigger, and is a fantastic skater. Who is growing up in an EXTREMELY defensive system, and by all accounts has a terrific 200ft game. Who was described by Johnny Gaudreau's USHL coach as 'a 6 ft 2 Johnny Gaudreau'. That Mark Jankowski is the 4th line centre.

Try and stop us.

[JiriHrdina]

Originally Posted by RoughRiderRowdy

Stajan needs to be released

This isn't football.

[JiriHrdina]

Originally Posted by GoFlamesGo1989

I honestly don't by us becoming the Oilers if we got rid of players like Stajan and GlenX. With this coaching staff and our top four D we have enough veteran leadership to build around our young up and coming forward core.

The fact is Edmonton is no good. Not that they don't have veteran leadership.

And you don't see the connection between their no goodness and the lack of balance between you and vets on that club?
The culture of this team is great right now - we don't know much about what happens in the room - but we do know from numerous reports that Stajan is looked at being one of the major leaders.

In the past the Flames have had severe enough culture problems that addition by subtraction was warranted.

That is not the case now.

[Karl]

Originally Posted by Iggy Snipe

How so? Good on face-offs? I would like to know what a below average forward in the NHL looks like. Stajan is definitely below average talent wise. Did you watch the Islanders/ Flames game?

Come on. He is definitely a below average player and the numbers don't lie. Im sure he is a great guy in the room, but that only goes so far.

Yes I watched the Islanders/Flames game.

The Flames 4th line has been way better since Stajan has re-joined that line. And believe it or not, the 4th line being better has a lot to do with Stajan's play. Does this mean nothing to you?

Stajan is below average offensively talent wise now, but he has been a HUGE reason why the 4th line is rarely trapped in its own zone anymore. It's because of his defensive ability.

If you can't see the positive (especially positive defensive effect) he's had on that 4th line then you are not being objective and are showing a huge case of conformation bias.

[Tinordi]

Who cares about Stajan?

Honestly.

Why is there such a need to *punish* Stajan for being what he is - a responsible veteran center providing depth on a rebuilding team. Sure he's making money. We're at the freaking cap floor. The revile for Stajan is unhinged at this point.

Of the list of concerns or issues on this team, Matt Stajan's presence is less problematic than the ice making equipment.

Why don't we make that our next cause celebre? Release the ice making crew!!

[Erick Estrada]

Originally Posted by Tinordi

Who cares about Stajan?

Honestly.

Why is there such a need to *punish* Stajan for being what he is - a responsible veteran center providing depth on a rebuilding team. Sure he's making money. We're at the freaking cap floor. The revile for Stajan is unhinged at this point.

Of the list of concerns or issues on this team, Matt Stajan's presence is less problematic than the ice making equipment.

Why don't we make that our next cause celebre? Release the ice making crew!!

Stajan may be overpaid but he's extremely competent as a 4th line center and as has been said is looked at as a leader in the locker room. There is no need to start making salary based moves when you are a cap floor team. Right now it's all about cultivating a culture and identity to which the Flames have done a very good job this season.

I could understand if he's a player like McGratton who can't play anymore despite being a solid locker room guy but Stajan can still play a solid bottom 6 role for any team in this league.

[Caged Great]

Here's my list

Core pieces

Giordano
Brodie
Hudler
Gaudreau
Monahan
Bennett
Bouma (As strange as it sounds)

Keep all of those guys as long as possible, including re-signing Hudler and Gio to mid term contracts once their's expire (3-4 years at hopefully reasonable money anything less than 14 between them is a win)

There's a group of younger players that we need more info on. These include Backlund, Colborne, Granlund, Ferland, Baertschi, Jooris, all the AHL guys. It is to soon still to determine exactly what each of these players will be once we're on our way out of the rebuild. Backlund for example might be better served as a good two way winger instead of a center.

The good to have around, but are expendable if better players are available (Prospects or trade/free agent)

Everyone older than Backlund basically.

The goalie situation doesn't really matter much as they are all just keeping the seat warm for Mason MacGillies.

[RoughRiderRowdy]

Originally Posted by JiriHrdina

This isn't football.

Thanks for the clarification.

[ForeverFlameFan]

Why does Stajan need to go? It's not like we are in cap trouble, and he is probably the only center we can really put on any line if need be.