Does Sven have a future with the Flames?

[Street Pharmacist]

He was never a 7 in a sea of threes. I was the first one questioning his success with Rattie, but you're cherry picking here. I in his draft +1 he had very elite numbers and continued them when Rattie was out. Not a "7"s good numbers, he has numbers that a "9" would put up. He's been disappointing since, but let's not pretend there wasn't plenty to be excited about a few years ago. He was a better prospect after that draft +1 than any non Bennett prospect we currently have

[Lanny_McDonald]

Originally Posted by Street Pharmacist

He was never a 7 in a sea of threes. I was the first one questioning his success with Rattie, but you're cherry picking here. I in his draft +1 he had very elite numbers and continued them when Rattie was out. Not a "7"s good numbers, he has numbers that a "9" would put up. He's been disappointing since, but let's not pretend there wasn't plenty to be excited about a few years ago. He was a better prospect after that draft +1 than any non Bennett prospect we currently have

When was Rattie out that Baertschi continued scoring? Rattie played pretty well the whole season and only missed a single playoff game. It was Baertschi who missed chunks of the season.

Again, I think people got all too excited after the 2011-12 season and Baertschi's call up. I admit to being one of them. I thought he was a star in the making. It appears that was not a fair projection. There was a reason why Sven went 13th in what is looking to be a pretty weak draft. We hoped we had caught a sleeper, but it doesn't look that way. considering the best players from his draft year are looking like 2nd liners, calling him a 7 is a fair call in my opinion. But if you don't like that particular projection, take it up with Flash Walken. He boldly made the statement. I only cited him and supported his claims.

[Enoch Root]

Shinnimin was an over-ager who was 21 for half of that season you're referring to, and 21 months older than Baertschi. Just stop.

[Tinordi]

Originally Posted by Street Pharmacist

He was never a 7 in a sea of threes. I was the first one questioning his success with Rattie, but you're cherry picking here. I in his draft +1 he had very elite numbers and continued them when Rattie was out. Not a "7"s good numbers, he has numbers that a "9" would put up. He's been disappointing since, but let's not pretend there wasn't plenty to be excited about a few years ago. He was a better prospect after that draft +1 than any non Bennett prospect we currently have

Which is why you generally tend to discount the draft+1 year. Sure it's nice to see a guy step up in draft+1 but what really matters is their draft year. Sven still had good/great NHL-E in his draft year but I think we got drunk on the fact that the organization hadn't had a good forward prospect in a decade and he was putting up huge points on a dominant team. Those two factors meant that we definitely overrated him as a prospect.

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by Tinordi

Which is why you generally tend to discount the draft+1 year. Sure it's nice to see a guy step up in draft+1 but what really matters is their draft year. Sven still had good/great NHL-E in his draft year but I think we got drunk on the fact that the organization hadn't had a good forward prospect in a decade and he was putting up huge points on a dominant team. Those two factors meant that we definitely overrated him as a prospect.

Why on earth would you discount draft +1?

The draft is a snapshot in time. Period. It's far more important to look for progression.

When Baertschi excelled in his draft +1 year, that was plenty of reason for fans to get optimistic.

[Lanny_McDonald]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

When Baertschi excelled in his draft +1 year, that was plenty of reason for fans to get optimistic.

What about when the player regresses in each of the next three years? Shouldn't expectations be recalibrated? Every top draft pick starts out with big potential, but the second after they are drafted that potential begins to fade. Potential is only maintained if the player continues to show growth in their game. Or is Robbie Schremp still a stud because of the 2.57 PPG he scored in junior too? What happened in junior was great, but the player needs to show something in the pro ranks to still be considered a top prospect. That isn't happening and a lot of other prospects have passed the kid by.

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by New Era

What about when the player regresses in each of the next three years? Shouldn't expectations be recalibrated? Every top draft pick starts out with big potential, but the second after they are drafted that potential begins to fade. Potential is only maintained if the player continues to show growth in their game. Or is Robbie Schremp still a stud because of the 2.57 PPG he scored in junior too? What happened in junior was great, but the player needs to show something in the pro ranks to still be considered a top prospect. That isn't happening and a lot of other prospects have passed the kid by.

Of course they should. And that has happened. But it's also important to keep in mind that progression isn't linear. Just because a guy moves sideways for a while, doesn't necessarily mean he's done.

[Erick Estrada]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

Of course they should. And that has happened. But it's also important to keep in mind that progression isn't linear. Just because a guy moves sideways for a while, doesn't necessarily mean he's done.

Nope but it means he's not making progress and the fact that he hasn't been making progress for over a calendar year now has to be concerning. There really aren't a lot of success stories in the league centered around guys that flat lined after junior as the AHL is littered with guys that could never adapt their junior game in the pros. The odds aren't in his favor. Sven doesn't play center or have the size of a guy like Colborne where even if he doesn't hit his draft projections he can be a solid NHL player. If Sven can't become a dynamic offensive forward he's not going to have a place in the NHL because the rest of his game isn't that great.

[GioforPM]

I always think of Brad Moran as a guy who I figured he was a lock for the NHL but it never happened. He was a tremendous producer for the Hitmen. Over 1.5 in his last 2 years (after being drafted), and over 2 PPG in the 98-99 POs where they lost in the Memorial cup final. He didn't even flatline as an AHLer - almost a PPG. Just never made it in the NHL. 8 games, 3 points.

[Ashasx]

Originally Posted by New Era

He missed more than two weeks of hockey as a result of injury. He missed 14 games as a result of injury. That is more than two weeks. Again, FACTS you can't make go away.

Can you post the sources of these facts?

Baertschi missed a little under 2 weeks while with the Flames.

He would have missed around 2 weeks while at the WJC.

Where are you getting that he missed 14 games as a direct result of injury?

[Lanny_McDonald]

Originally Posted by Ashasx

Can you post the sources of these facts?

Baertschi missed a little under 2 weeks while with the Flames.

He would have missed around 2 weeks while at the WJC.

Where are you getting that he missed 14 games as a direct result of injury?

Already did.

[Cleveland Steam Whistle]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

Why on earth would you discount draft +1?

The draft is a snapshot in time. Period. It's far more important to look for progression.

When Baertschi excelled in his draft +1 year, that was plenty of reason for fans to get optimistic.

I'm going to assume you discount it because of the players age vs. the competition he's against. 1 year, 2 year means a lot at the junior level. Doing something in your draft year means a lot more than managing to step it up the next year when you are a year older in junior, much easier to do.

[Ozy_Flame]

Sven is spelled like "seven" but without the first E.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Ashasx

Can you post the sources of these facts?

Baertschi missed a little under 2 weeks while with the Flames.

He would have missed around 2 weeks while at the WJC.

Where are you getting that he missed 14 games as a direct result of injury?

He had a hip injury early that year. That may be what you are missing.

I think all the talk of what he did as a junior is pretty irrelevant. Junior isn't the AHL, and the AHL isn't the NHL. Unless the player is a real phenom, they need to play at AHL speed before they can try NHL speed (I'm not just talking skating speed here).

One of the scourts said of Sven in junior "if he ever stops going to the middle of the ice, he's worthless". That was obviously a harsh comment, but interesting looking at his style play right now.

[Geeoff]

I think he only has a spot if he wants to give RW another try.

[BACKCHECK!!!]

I think Sven has looked better by eye in the last few weeks than he has ever looked before.

The numbers haven't been there yet, but I'm 100% convinced that Sven could be playing as a 2nd liner on some teams right now.

The notion that he'd be put on waivers is laughable.

[#-3]

Maybe we are all making a mistake thinking he shouldn't be in the line up, obviously he is making a difference in his 9 minutes/game, because with him the Flames have been a presidents trophy team and without they have been a bottom 5 teams.

11-3-0 with Sven in the line up
6-7-2 without him.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by BACKCHECK!!!

I think Sven has looked better by eye in the last few weeks than he has ever looked before.

The numbers haven't been there yet, but I'm 100% convinced that Sven could be playing as a 2nd liner oN some teams.

You've literally said that Sven is better '"visually".

Sven may have played better - I've not been that impressed even visually. But what team other than the Oilers would have him as a second liner?

[FlamesAddiction]

It's difficult to go through all the top line forwards in the NHL and not notice how most impact top 6 forwards were playing and contributing in the NHL by the age of 22. There are of course exceptions to that, so here is hoping that Baertschi is one of those.

[Red Menace]

Oh great; they are playing Sven with BVB and Vause in practice.....