YLYL Thread Sexism Discussion (split from Gay Teen thread).

[troutman]

I don't know where else to put this post, so I'll put it here:

Recently on a long drive in a rental car I heard a "classic" interview of Snoop Dogg on Howard Stern. When it was over I thought - why do we celebrate this guy? He bragged about being a pimp, a gangster, a womanizer, and a drug abuser. He's lazy - he does not prepare at all for his recordings - just shows up and makes up some lame rhymes off the top of his head. Howard praised him for being "real". All the women in his life are "bitches".

If your son or brother behaved like Snoop Dogg, you would disown him.

[photon]

Originally Posted by Thor

I keep running into the confirmation of this fact over and over, would love to read up on anything to the contrary.

What I read recently was that while some (most?) research shows men being more visually stimulated than women, how that's interpreted isn't so simple. In a culture where boys are taught to value physical appearance almost from birth.

Same with something like sleeping with a stranger, how much are the responses skewed by men saying yes because that's what they think it means to be a man, and how many women say no because they're conditioned to since acting that way brings severe social judgement.

I don't think the genetic vs. sociological influences are a slam dunk.

[FireFly]

Originally Posted by Thor

Also my thoughts on being offended are perfectly said by the wonderful Stephen Fry, again not to suggest we ignore the will of those against this thread, but "offense" is such a often thrown around word with little validity to it.

So should we allow people to post racist and homophobic remarks then? Who cares if people are offended?

Another female here and another one who doesn't care if the YLYL thread exists. I no longer go into it.

It's not the pictures, it's again the comments. 5/10, would not bang, etc. The problem is not jsut within the thread itself, the problem has grown to any thread discussing any woman. Every single thread discussing women asks for a picture because a woman's worth is apparently determined by her looks, followed by a discussion about whether or not that woman is 'bangable'.

Having a thread like this which is on the front page of the offtopic every day makes it seem like comments like these are okay. And so they continue. Everywhere. It is one of the largest threads on this board and comments like that are throughout it so it must be okay to objectify women on this site. And so they are.

IMO, allowing threads like this is for the lowest common denominator. This is a hockey site with an off-topic forum. If you want fap material, I can point you to a million places on the internet so you can find pics of half naked women and discuss their rating out of 10 and whether or not you would bang.

[Thor]

Yeah for sure, but the data still points in the effect visual has on men is quite strong, evolutionary speaking that's a common argument, but we know evolutionary sexuality is not exactly an exact science. There's a lot more MRI research which tells us something, but it leads to a lot of conclusions that might be reaching in its scope.

I would say that of course we have learned a lot about women's sexuality the last 50 years, watch the great TV series, Masters of sex

But all the studies when men are given specific body types, waist/hip ratio is a huge factor when all they see is the mid sections of girls not knowing what age they are, its all very telling and seems to agree with evolutionary concepts of what men are wired to be drawn to.

The "A Billion wicked thoughts" while it has its detractors is a fascinating study of online search habbits of men and women. I'm going to order that along with Itse's book, I have a feeling that book won't suprise me too much as I've read a lot of the old ideas we've had about women and sexuality is wrong.

Great discussion so far, this is why I love CP so much!

[Ark2]

Originally Posted by The Ditch

remember when that thread had photos of guys with their shirts off and then the calgarypuck collective cried about it and banned posting photos of guys.


Good times.

It's a thread about "hot girls", why wouldn't there be an objection? If forum members want to start an "attractive guys" thread then go for it. As a man, I wouldn't find it offensive or misandric. I just wouldn't open it as it isn't my thing. Post pictures of dudes in speedos in that thread for all that I care, what's the issue?

[octothorp]

I don't have a problem with the existence of the thread or most of the photos that are posted on there; but as others have said, it's the judgemental commentary where I think misogyny comes into play. At the very least it needs a "keep comments positive, or STFU" rule (whether that's self-policed or mod-policed). Doesn't matter if a women is too plain for you, too muscular for you, too tattooed for you, too curvy for you, too old for you, whatever. It isn't often that those sorts of comments come up, but that's perhaps only because pictures of women who differ from those narrow standards are rarely posted. So to what extent are photos of such women not posted because they're met with vocal criticism when they are posted? I think there's a vicious circle there that perpetuates the narrow definitions of female beauty in that thread.

To me the harm in such comments isn't that you're insulting some woman in a photo who's never going to read those comments, or insulting our more visible female posters, who seem pretty thick-skinned about it. To me, the harm is telling girls who might be visiting the site that they will be judged by similar standards, and telling boys that it's acceptable to make comments like this to girls. I hate to play the "won't someone think of the children" card. On the Internet nothing is said in a vacuum, and a negative comment about a woman's appearance is going to hurt someone, somewhere, in a way that's much more personal than, say, running down someone's favorite hockey team.

[The Ditch]

Originally Posted by Ark2

It's a thread about "hot girls", why wouldn't there be an objection? If forum members want to start an "attractive guys" thread then go for it. As a man, I wouldn't find it offensive or misandric. I just wouldn't open it as it isn't my thing. Post pictures of dudes in speedos in that thread for all that I care, what's the issue?

actually it wasn't a thread about hot girls originally it was you love you lose (so dumb) and then once the guy photos started getting posted the name was changed hth

[Eastern Girl]

I still remember when I posted hot male athletes in the thread that was titled "Hot Olympians." It was not titled "Hot women Olympians." There was no gender association in the title. I was bombarded with numerous posts/PMs asking me to take them down or delete them. The thread title was then changed to be exclusively female athletes.

I don't think people here are as open sexually as they claim to be, or at least they are only open about sexuality when it involves the chance for them to see female nudity. The girls here for the most part just deal with it. But heavens to Betsy, if we post a post a picture of a hot guy, you guys throw tantrums.

It definitely does have a little bit of an Old Boys Club feeling here sometimes, or No Girls Allowed, and I'm sorry, if the point is to be inclusive, we are failing.

As for the thread, I looked in the thread when it was first started out of curiosity and that curiosity quickly turned to disgust and discomfort so I no longer look in it. It's easy to just avoid the thread. The problem is that those pictures/comments don't stay in that thread. They are in a lot of different threads that have nothing to do with sexuality or women that end up just being pics or comments about women. I don't think men realize how uncomfortable it can be for women and how difficult it is to just "not look at it." It's everywhere. It's absolutely everywhere.

I was also labelled a feminazi awhile back when I argued the whole Sean Avery/Sloppy seconds crap. We are a minority on this website and I find that sometimes, when we speak up, we get written off or labelled. It mirrors real life in that sense. The last place I worked was the very epitome of Boys Club. Not only did I deal with constant rumours about being promiscuous, I also had to deal with the managers and my co-workers setting up meetings in places like Hooters or other "guys" places. If I spoke up, it was "Why can you just be cool?" or "I guess we can't have any fun, we have to be PC for the lady." I usually just put up with it, but I hated it and it was uncomfortable. Have you ever been sitting in on a meeting at Hooters and have some low life suit ask you when you are going to change into your shortie shorts and tank to start your shift because he wants to see your tits, all in front of your bosses/co-workers, who think it's hilarious? It was degrading. Off tangent really, but it paints the picture of "damned if you do, damned if you don't."

I wish I were being more eloquent about the whole thing, but honestly, I get worked up about this stuff and my thoughts are really scattered. Apologies. I just thought I should chime in as one of the minority female posters. As most females have said, it's not necessarily the pictures themselves, but more the attitude associated with them.

[Thor]

Originally Posted by FireFly

So should we allow people to post racist and homophobic remarks then? Who cares if people are offended?

But are we comparing homophobic comments and racism to sexy images of women? Of course there is a limit to what is acceptable on a message forum, which is why this thread is discussing whether we should continue that thread.

Personally I'd rather have people say what they think, its good to know the real feelings of people, so I know who I can loathe and whom I can respect.

As for what Stephen Fry is referring to, "offense" he's pretty bang on. This is a gay man who has spent his life dealing with horrible people, horrible statements and he feels offense is a cop out term. He's right, when someone racist says something awful, its awful, disgusting, terrible, etc.. Why not call it what it is, offense just means you are bothered, so why not call it out for what it is.

We see people being offended at political opinions, art, film, games, everything is an offense which like Mr Fry says is simply a whine. Where as you call out an ignorant racist scumbag your doing something, being offended, where does that leave you? So often "offense" is used as a way of shutting down discussion, lets not forget its mostly used as a way of pulling yourself out of a discussion, sometimes it warranted to do so but lets call bad actions, words out for what they are, and that's the important point Fry makes.

IMO, allowing threads like this is for the lowest common denominator. This is a hockey site with an off-topic forum. If you want fap material, I can point you to a million places on the internet so you can find pics of half naked women and discuss their rating out of 10 and whether or not you would bang.

Well it would seem you do care then about this thread being here, I certainly don't want it here if this is the reaction of our female board members.

[Chill Cosby]

Originally Posted by Thor

Well it would seem you do care then about this thread being here, I certainly don't want it here if this is the reaction of our female board members.

Forgive me if I'm mistaken Thor, but I feel like you're not fully understanding the issue.

It's not so much about the thread from what I gather, but the attitude that it promotes. It's not posting pictures of hot women that is an issue, as I'm sure the women of CP would agree that it's fun looking at beautiful people. It's that it isn't inclusive and much of the narrative is upsetting to women.

Why are women being ridiculed when they post pictures of hot guys, when pictures of hot women get posted everywhere?

[rubecube]

Just wanted to add that this whole debate kind of kicked off when myself and few others argued that there was still quite a heavy presence of homophobia and misogyny on CP, and then the YLYL thread was used an example. Whether you think it is an example of misogyny or not, it's pretty clear from the number of female posters who have commented in here that they do view misogyny as a major problem. I'm wondering, what does the community and the moderating team think can be done to be more proactive about dealing with misogyny, so that this is a welcome space for female posters?

[Thor]

Originally Posted by Chill Cosby

Forgive me if I'm mistaken Thor, but I feel like you're not fully understanding the issue.

Actually I've said it repeatedly that there are 2 issues here for me, one is if this feels degrading or demeans CP forums and makes our female members (especially) bothered then I am all for removing it. The other one is a much deeper discussion about human sexuality, our attitudes towards them, what the science says, what society deems..

It's not so much about the thread from what I gather, but the attitude that it promotes. It's not posting pictures of hot women that is an issue, as I'm sure the women of CP would agree that it's fun looking at beautiful people. It's that it isn't inclusive and much of the narrative is upsetting to women.

Agreed, I don't follow the thread enough to remember seeing a lot of degrading comments, I'm sure there are though, sadly.

Why are women being ridiculed when they post pictures of hot guys, when pictures of hot women get posted everywhere?

That baffles me as well, idiots who do that. My guess is some men feel threatened about seeing hot muscular guys being posted, gives them a taste of what women sometimes feel, and I'm sure the irony is lost on those guys.

[corporatejay]

Originally Posted by Eastern Girl

I still remember when I posted hot male athletes in the thread that was titled "Hot Olympians." It was not titled "Hot women Olympians." There was no gender association in the title. I was bombarded with numerous posts/PMs asking me to take them down or delete them. The thread title was then changed to be exclusively female athletes.

I don't think people here are as open sexually as they claim to be, or at least they are only open about sexuality when it involves the chance for them to see female nudity. The girls here for the most part just deal with it. But heavens to Betsy, if we post a post a picture of a hot guy, you guys throw tantrums.

It definitely does have a little bit of an Old Boys Club feeling here sometimes, or No Girls Allowed, and I'm sorry, if the point is to be inclusive, we are failing.

As for the thread, I looked in the thread when it was first started out of curiosity and that curiosity quickly turned to disgust and discomfort so I no longer look in it. It's easy to just avoid the thread. The problem is that those pictures/comments don't stay in that thread. They are in a lot of different threads that have nothing to do with sexuality or women that end up just being pics or comments about women. I don't think men realize how uncomfortable it can be for women and how difficult it is to just "not look at it." It's everywhere. It's absolutely everywhere.

I was also labelled a feminazi awhile back when I argued the whole Sean Avery/Sloppy seconds crap. We are a minority on this website and I find that sometimes, when we speak up, we get written off or labelled. It mirrors real life in that sense. The last place I worked was the very epitome of Boys Club. Not only did I deal with constant rumours about being promiscuous, I also had to deal with the managers and my co-workers setting up meetings in places like Hooters or other "guys" places. If I spoke up, it was "Why can you just be cool?" or "I guess we can't have any fun, we have to be PC for the lady." I usually just put up with it, but I hated it and it was uncomfortable. Have you ever been sitting in on a meeting at Hooters and have some low life suit ask you when you are going to change into your shortie shorts and tank to start your shift because he wants to see your tits, all in front of your bosses/co-workers, who think it's hilarious? It was degrading. Off tangent really, but it paints the picture of "damned if you do, damned if you don't."

I wish I were being more eloquent about the whole thing, but honestly, I get worked up about this stuff and my thoughts are really scattered. Apologies. I just thought I should chime in as one of the minority female posters. As most females have said, it's not necessarily the pictures themselves, but more the attitude associated with them.

I'm actually glad you stuck around. A few years ago there was a "post your mug" thread or something and certain people hounded you like dogs to get you to post your picture until a mod had to step in, as if somehow how you looked was at all relevant to the quality of your posts. I think that was a low point for this board.

[Itse]

Originally Posted by rubecube

I'm wondering, what does the community and the moderating team think can be done to be more proactive about dealing with misogyny, so that this is a welcome space for female posters?

Do we have female mods?

[nik-]

GS should probably be a mod, she's more active than the forum database. Although, that might lead to a K-pop subforum.

[rubecube]

Originally Posted by Itse

Do we have female mods?

http://forum.calgarypuck.com/showthr...81#post4896381

[undercoverbrother]

Originally Posted by Itse

Do we have female mods?

I nominate Bronzel, she sorts #### out!

[polak]

This forum tries to be so politically correct sometimes that it gets a little ridiculous.

Are we really this against a "hot girl" thread? Wow. People like looking at attractive people? There is a lot more guys on here than girls so the thread is almost all women. There's not much more to it. I'd understand if it was porn we were talking about but the thread is pretty harmless.

EDIT: I didn't read the whole thread so I might be out to lunch here. If so, please ignore...

[undercoverbrother]

Originally Posted by rubecube

http://forum.calgarypuck.com/showthr...81#post4896381

sycophant.......

[undercoverbrother]

Originally Posted by polak

This forum tries to be so politically correct sometimes that it gets a little ridiculous.

Are we really this against a "hot girl" thread? Wow. People like looking at attractive people? There is a lot more guys on here than girls so the thread is almost all women. There's not much more to it. I'd understand if it was porn we were talking about but the thread is pretty harmless.

EDIT: I didn't read the whole thread so I might be out to lunch here. If so, please ignore...

Love your new sig....