07-25-2014, 10:14 AM
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#101
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Franchise Player
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Vancouver
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dissentowner
So glad Sutter went, his mismanagement of lines and Matt Stajan was just plain terrible.
He kind of reminds me of Greg Gilbert, well maybe not that bad but you get the idea.
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It's not a bad comparison. Both coaches struggled with the square pegs.
No one would say that we didn't have a motley crew of players, both when it came to skill and personalities, but good coaches know how to play people to their strengths. I truly believe that Brent Sutter had a full tool box but didn't know what to do with them. He would do much better with a bag of hammers.
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"A pessimist thinks things can't get any worse. An optimist knows they can."
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07-25-2014, 10:16 AM
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#102
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RANDOM USER TITLE CHANGE
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: South Calgary
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vulcan
The thing for me is a good coach is able to adapt a system for the players he has, not the other way around and Brent was just too pig headed and stuck in his ways to adapt. He also had a loser mentality. When we went to California to play two games in two days, he'd start Kipper against the weak team trying to guarantee a win while giving up trying to win the second game where he'd start the backup. The thing was this lack of confidence rubbed off on the team and they'd lose the easy game too.
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Did the Flames win all of their season series vs. California teams last season? I know for sure they did vs. LA. I think they also took the season series vs Chicago.
Last edited by Frank MetaMusil; 07-25-2014 at 10:19 AM.
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07-25-2014, 10:19 AM
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#103
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Franchise Player
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Bay Area
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sidney Crosby's Hat
The year that Brent Sutter came in as coach, Darryl Sutter actually wanted to coach but was denied by higher-ups. I think Darryl could have at least made that team into one that won a round or two as coach.
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Wow. If it could have been done and get a new GM to replace DS, this team could look so different right now.
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07-25-2014, 10:25 AM
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#104
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Franchise Player
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Vancouver
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dustygoon
Wow. If it could have been done and get a new GM to replace DS, this team could look so different right now.
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As good of a coach as Darryl Sutter is (and not a bad manager either IMO), he doesn't seem like he would have the patience for a rebuild, and it's hard to imagine that it wasn't needed.
Darryl strikes me as a master motivator. Players go to the wall for him and he is like a lightning rod for taking external pressure off them, which I think makes them love him. But he doesn't seem like a teacher, and given all the young talent this team has, I am glad that we went in a different direction.
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"A pessimist thinks things can't get any worse. An optimist knows they can."
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07-25-2014, 10:51 AM
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#105
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Franchise Player
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Vancouver
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^^ I'm not sure that's necessarily true. The 04 team had a lot of young talent, even through the core.
Iginla - 26
Regehr - 24
Leopold - 24
Lombardi - 22
Saprykin - 23
Kobasew - 22
Average age of the team was 27. And that had guys like Lowry, Conroy, Gelinas, and Turek throwing off the age curve. And even those guys were early-mid 30's.
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07-25-2014, 11:00 AM
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#106
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Lifetime Suspension
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: The Void between Darkness and Light
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What does it say about a team that can't finish top 15 in goals for and goals against in the same season?
It says they are a bad team.
If your only options are play stifling defense to a 9th place finish or play full bore offense to an 8th place finish, you're a fundamentally bad club.
Good teams don't have to sacrifice offense for defense or defense for offense. Bad teams usually have to pick one and hope it gets them somewhere.
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07-25-2014, 11:14 AM
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#107
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Franchise Player
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Textcritic
But moreover, this is about more than just Sutter and Iginla. There were other players on the team upon whose ears B. Sutter's message fell with no effect. Is this all because of Iginla? I can't imagine that even a persona as big as his was so overwhelming in that dressing room so as to effectively muzzle Sutter.
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The others guy who didn't buy in were Iginla's pals. Guys like Tanguay were brought here to make Iginla happy. We had a core of very complacent veterans. "The answers are in that room."
Quote:
Originally Posted by Textcritic
Finally, it needs also to be pointed out that B. Sutter has not again coached in the NHL, and likely never will.
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It also needs to be pointed out that Darryl Sutter has not GMed again in the NHL, and likely never will. Quite simply, he did not give his brother a very good team to coach.
Quote:
Originally Posted by FAN
With that said, there's a huge difference between Iginla joining a Cup contender with a respected captain and established leadership group than being the captain of a team that he's been looked upon to lead the room. On other teams, Iginla was forced to buy in where as in Calgary, he was the one who was suppose to force guys to buy in.
The effect on a team when the leader doesn't rally his team together and allows cliques cannot be underestimated.
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Exactly. I hope we come away from this era with the recognition that someone who is a great player and a great person is not necessarily a great leader. In fact, most of the best leaders in Flames history have been roleplayers, not stars.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MrMastodonFarm
I've never seen such a cavalcade of excuses for one coach before.
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And I've never seen such a cavalcade of excuses for a roster of players that simply was not very good from 2007-2012. They failed to accomplish anything under Playfair, they failed under Keenan, and they failed under Sutter. That doesn't absolve those coaches from responsibility. But it sure makes it hard to argue that coaching was the only problem.
It hurts to admit it, but that era of the Flames was not especially well managed, or well coached, or very effective on the ice. Flames fans were blind to the mediocrity because it seemed like heaven compared to the dark years. A couple superstar players and an ownership willing to spend to the salary cap masked a lot of problems.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fotze
If this day gets you riled up, you obviously aren't numb to the disappointment yet to be a real fan.
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Last edited by CliffFletcher; 07-25-2014 at 11:22 AM.
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07-25-2014, 11:33 AM
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#108
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First Line Centre
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Brent Sutter was the worst hire this organization had. Hartley got more out of Iginla, Bowmeester, Stajan, etc. than Sutter and would likely have made the playoffs during that 3 yr span.
Although Brent was a blessing in disguise since his failures allowed the rebuild to take place
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07-25-2014, 12:02 PM
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#109
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Farm Team Player
Join Date: Jan 2007
Exp: 
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I don't remember one good thing Brent did for the team during his 3 years here, at least Playfair and Keenan were able to make the playoffs.
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07-25-2014, 12:05 PM
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#110
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Powerplay Quarterback
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: At a garage sale
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MarkGio
Brent Sutter was the worst hire this organization had. Hartley got more out of Iginla, Bowmeester, Stajan, etc. than Sutter and would likely have made the playoffs during that 3 yr span.
Although Brent was a blessing in disguise since his failures allowed the rebuild to take place
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I don't think so. The problems started long before he got here. The team lost its mojo after Darryl moved to take over GM duties and we hired Jim Playfair...Then Keenan. By the time Brent got here the team was broken and the writing was beginning to appear on the wall. Not even Scotty Bowman could have turned those guys around IMO.
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07-25-2014, 12:42 PM
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#111
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Franchise Player
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stormchaser
I don't think so. The problems started long before he got here. The team lost its mojo after Darryl moved to take over GM duties and we hired Jim Playfair...Then Keenan. By the time Brent got here the team was broken and the writing was beginning to appear on the wall. Not even Scotty Bowman could have turned those guys around IMO.
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Maybe with respect to making them true contenders.
But BSutter, instead of helping or improving the situation, obliterated the life out of the organization.
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07-25-2014, 12:52 PM
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#112
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Powerplay Quarterback
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Calgary
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CliffFletcher
The others guy who didn't buy in were Iginla's pals. Guys like Tanguay were brought here to make Iginla happy. We had a core of very complacent veterans. "The answers are in that room."
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I'm pretty sure, what with all the rumors out there, that Phaneuf was NOT one of Iginla's "pals".
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07-25-2014, 01:56 PM
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#113
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Franchise Player
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tinordi
Yes yes, there's a well established story on this board that Brent sucked the creativity out of the team and if only we had Keenan back we'd lock up 8th for a ignominious exit in the first round.
There'll be no convincing anyone of anything at this time. I'll just throw down a couple of my reasons for why I think this story is not very balanced.
I perceived the biggest problem with Brent was that the players didn't buy into his system. Now, alot of people use this to then blame Brent for being a bad coach and not catering to his players. This is backward logic in my opinion. This is pro sports, it's not like Brent's system couldn't have been employed with the talent in the room, it was a system based on hard work. The problem was that Iginla and friends didn't want to play that system. Brent flat out said that the leadership wasn't buying in and Iginla retorted saying that his job is to score goals.
Now who's more to blame here? Brent responsible for putting a winning system out on the ice. The players, being paid millions, are responsible for delivering on the vision of the coach.
Further, Brent came in to address years of bad habits. Again, is it Brent's fault that the inmates were left to run the asylum prior to him arriving? Does that fact that Iginla and friends were happy being the gang under Keenan then make Brent a bad coach for trying to correct it instead of just going along?
It's a bit two-faced in my opinion to deride Keenan for being too lax, then to say Brent was a bad coach because he didn't adapt to the type of hockey the players wanted to play.
Fundamentally, I believe the reason Brent is targeted is that he's a generally easy scape goat around here. We witnessed the crumbling of a "perenial playoff contender" before our very eyes under Brent. The availability heuristic, or our need to find causal relationships even where one doesn't exist points easily and lazily to Brent. But what if Iginla and friends, high on the hog, but older slower and less committed to playing hard hockey and deteriorating in their skill was the real reason for the collapse? I know, never call out the prodigal son but to me what we witnessed was the inevitable unraveling of a core that was no longer fit to contend. Brent was unfortunate to have to preside over it but he wasn't the real problem.
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Let's face it - we'll probably never know the whole truth behind why Brent was such a big failure with the Flames. We can only speculate on players and Brent's intentions. The only hard evidence that we all know is that Brent wasn't even close to running his teams at capacity through 3 years. If he wanted a rebuild, then he should've made it more obvious and pulled certain players off the lineup and lose the way the Oilers have done for so many years. Brent wasn't the only problem, but he sure magnified the problems that Darryl had built up over the years since become the GM.
And this whole inmate-asylum thing that a few of you talk about - if that was the case, I'm sure Sutter would've take the C off of Iggy's jersey by his 3rd and final season and given it to Gio. If he really wanted Gio over Iggy, it was his call to do so and do what's right for the team. That whole inmate-asylum things is total BS. You also see JBo wearing an A on his sweater at times and the guy was terrible for the whole time Brent was behind the Flames bench. As I recall, ever since the last trio-captaincy for the Flames back in 1989, the Flames never had team members select the captains. It's up to the coaching staff to do that.
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07-25-2014, 02:00 PM
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#114
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Franchise Player
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Calgary, AB
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You're positively delusional if you think stripping Iggy of his C would ever be Brent Sutter's call
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07-25-2014, 02:44 PM
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#115
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Franchise Player
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MarkGio
Brent Sutter was the worst hire this organization had. Hartley got more out of Iginla, Bowmeester, Stajan, etc. than Sutter and would likely have made the playoffs during that 3 yr span.
Although Brent was a blessing in disguise since his failures allowed the rebuild to take place
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Jarome Iginla under Hartley
0.29 GPG
0.42 APG
0.71 PPG
82 game pace for Iginla under Hartley
24 goals 34 assists 58 points
3 year average under Sutter
36 goals 38 assists 74 points
Not sure how Hartley got "more" out of Iginla.
It is impressive how Hartley comes in in 2012/2013 and the only major changes to the team from the year before are:
In
- Full season of Cammalleri instead of Bourque
- Jiri Hudler
- Dennis Wideman
- Roman Cervenka
- Steve Begin
Out
- Olli Jokinen
- Rene Bourque
- Tom Kostopoulous
- Scott Hannan
- David Moss
And Hartley when Iginla was in the lineup puts up a .451 winning percentage and the year before Sutter had a winning percentage almost 100 points higher, Hartley over a 82 game season Hartley was on pace for 74 points, the year before Sutter got 90 points and the Flames were never worse than 90 points in any season under Sutter and Hartley is supposedly the better coach.
Sutter who averaged 91.3 points a season is a terrible coach and the reason the Flames never achieved their greatness. All the other coaches combined in the Flames playoff glory years (when they were consistently thumped in the first round except for one Cinderella run) averaged 97 points a year or less than 3 wins more a year were great and Sutter killed the team.
The fact of the matter is that that Flames era was made up of a bunch of talented prima donna's who played when they wanted to play and did not play when they did not want to play. Think Ottawa Senators over the same time period, but with less heart and less playoff rounds won, and you get the Calgary Flames. The Flames in that period of time should have gone after Dany Heatley because he would have cared at least as much about winning as pretty much every other player on the core of that team.
Last edited by Aarongavey; 07-25-2014 at 02:59 PM.
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07-25-2014, 04:21 PM
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#116
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First Line Centre
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Calgary
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It's not that complicated, the inability to draft and develop elite talent for a decade was the problem. Couldn't stay competitive in the west when everyone else was getting better. People try to make it a Brent issue or a Jarome issue, but the team just wasn't that good.
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07-25-2014, 09:31 PM
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#117
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#1 Goaltender
Join Date: Jul 2014
Location: Northern Crater
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MarkGio
Brent Sutter was the worst hire this organization had. Hartley got more out of Iginla, Bowmeester, Stajan, etc. than Sutter and would likely have made the playoffs during that 3 yr span.
Although Brent was a blessing in disguise since his failures allowed the rebuild to take place
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I don't think anyone would have turned any of the teams from 2010-2012 into anything worth remembering. Just some poorly built, deeply flawed teams. In the world of "what if" imagine Hartley was hired in 09 and Brent came on in 2013, how would people view them? My guess is Hartley would've been crucified while Sutter would be looked at as the perfect coach for a rebuilding team.
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07-25-2014, 09:32 PM
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#118
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Franchise Player
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aarongavey
Jarome Iginla under Hartley
And Hartley when Iginla was in the lineup puts up a .451 winning percentage and the year before Sutter had a winning percentage almost 100 points higher, Hartley over a 82 game season Hartley was on pace for 74 points, the year before Sutter got 90 points and the Flames were never worse than 90 points in any season under Sutter and Hartley is supposedly the better coach.
Sutter who averaged 91.3 points a season is a terrible coach and the reason the Flames never achieved their greatness. All the other coaches combined in the Flames playoff glory years (when they were consistently thumped in the first round except for one Cinderella run) averaged 97 points a year or less than 3 wins more a year were great and Sutter killed the team.
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Don't forget that the team that Brent had for the 2 years were still bigger than the team that Hartley got after all the big dmen are traded away, injured, or sat out most of the time. Then you get Feaster picking up small players in favor of speed as opposed to size. Hartley basically played a tinymite team on ice while most of the Western Conference teams were giants in comparison. Also, you can't compare a team with a mentality to make the playoffs with a team gunning for a rebuild.
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07-25-2014, 09:39 PM
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#119
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Powerplay Quarterback
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aarongavey
Good riddance to Brent Sutter, he had the Flames at least competing for a playoff spot. Hartley drove them down to 7th worst in the league and then 4th worst in the league and soon to be worst in the league. This is improving our prospects. He managed to drive the team down to 7th worst in the league with a better roster on paper. The worst thing that Brent did was make the Flames appear more competitive than they actually were, particularly in the 2nd and 3rd year.
He can quit his whining about Iginla too. I am sure there was one captain at the time that was more individualistic, who refused even more vehemently than Iginla to buy into their coaches system. It is not like he was the worst captain in the league during those years.
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There's just so many things wrong with this post. Not sure if you're trolling.
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07-25-2014, 09:40 PM
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#120
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Draft Pick
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I really think that Flames fans have to realize that if it were not for the goaltending of Miikka Kiprusoff in the 2007-2012 years, they would have been a bottom 10 team already.
I know his last couple of years were nothing to write home about, but some of those years he stood on his head and made a 10th to 12th place team into either a playoff team or a 9th to 10th place team.
If he could only have played better in the shoot out they probably would have made the playoffs a couple of extra years.
Iggy always was a leader who lead by example rather than a guy who stood up in the room. Rhett Warrener has said this numerous times on the radio.
Sutter was never the problem, an old team living off of the glory of the 2004 cup run was the issue.
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