Rape Watched?

[19Yzerman19]

Originally Posted by rubecube

Just blatantly false, man. I would advise you to do some research on sexual assault victims.

Well, I don't think I will simply because I have other things I'd rather spend my time on, but feel free to give me the coles notes version of the circumstances in which a rape victim will act as if s/he is a fully consenting participant who is enjoying the experience and actually not be consenting.

Really, you can't think of any creative ways to get consent other than asking outright? Not even simply asking a girl if she likes what you're doing to her? Or a "Hey, you want me to [insert euphemism]?"

Sure, but by that point you're pretty much engaged in the act, aren't you? What I meant was it's a bit awkward to ask permission beforehand, in the lead-up. It strikes me as an odd scenario for a guy to ask a girl if she likes what he's doing mid-coitus, and have her say no, I didn't want you to do this - why not say so beforehand? Do you really need to be asked first?

I realize this topic is a minefield but there has to be some sort of middle ground of sanity here. Is the word "yes" endowed with some magical significance? If someone can indicate in every non-verbal way imaginable, that they are a consensual participant in sexual congress, but not actually consent, why can they not also say "yes" without consenting?

[ken0042]

Originally Posted by rubecube

This is true, but there are steps you can take to protect yourself. And yes, I fully agree that women who do falsely accuse men should be punished, but when 1 in 4 women are being sexually assaulted, with only 1 out of 10 rapists usually being convicted, I think that changing rape culture should take priority over the 2-4 men out of 100 who are falsely accused.

The last time this discussion came up, the CP poll showed the percentage of men falsely accused as being higher than 2-4%. Although not a scientific poll, the numbers were telling.

[rubecube]

Originally Posted by ken0042

The last time this discussion came up, the CP poll showed the percentage of men falsely accused as being higher than 2-4%. Although not a scientific poll, the numbers were telling.

Telling of what exactly?

[Coys1882]

Originally Posted by rubecube

I'm pretty sure I said verbal. Like I said before, 9/10 you could be right, and maybe you are someone who can take a hint when a girl's not really interested. I'm just advocating for what's in everyone's best interests.

What is a verbal confirmation going to matter if she's too drunk to make a sound judgement or suffer buyers remorse the next day. How can you prove she verbally confirmed?

[ken0042]

Originally Posted by rubecube

Telling of what exactly?

That it was higher than many people expected.

[GGG]

Originally Posted by rubecube

I think that changing rape culture should take priority over the 2-4 men out of 100 who are falsely accused.

Why does it have to be either?

In fact the more false accusations you have the less sympathy real victims get. 1 false rape accusation undoes a lot of the work trying to get rape to be a front page issue. Look at jhunts post, this video for him confirms that 50% of college rapes are situations like this. This case re-enforces his ridiculous belief.

If we want to change rape culture you need to convict men who rape women and punish women who falsely accuse. If there isnt outrage for demonstrbly false accusations from victims rights orgs it hurts their cause.

Now this is based on the reporting currently to date. If she was blackmailed, drugged or intoxicated beyond consent then lock the guy up and it should be pretty easy given the number of witnesses.

[Coys1882]

My opinion on this looks like its consensual but I'm not really buying that this girl knows what's going on. I'm not convinced a 20 year old wants some random going down on her on a public street and I'm also not sure this girl is even aware where she is. She might think she's in a bedroom or something - let's all be honest, we've all been drunk enough to not really know what's going on around us.

Either way I wish one of these guys filming would have asked if she was ok and told the guy to maybe treat this girl with a little more respect.

[Coys1882]

As for false rape charges - the punishment is staggeringly mismatched. What did that girl get who sent an innocent man away for four years because her mom caught her watching porn? 9 months was it?

[Coys1882]

Last one - if this girl is so drunk she can't consent or resist. Where are her friends? Who is looking out for her? How did she get into this state on her own? Damnit I wish girls would protect themselves more from situations like this. It's a crime and shouldn't happen but you should ####ing know it can and could!

[rubecube]

Originally Posted by Coys1882

What is a verbal confirmation going to matter if she's too drunk to make a sound judgement or suffer buyers remorse the next day. How can you prove she verbally confirmed?

She can't give verbal consent if she's drunk. We went over this already. You can't legally consent to anything when intoxicated. If you're a sober dude who's cruising for waste cases at the bar, then you're pretty much a sexual predator.

[Violator]

Never though there could be so much intellectual debate on a guy going down on some girl on a street.

[Coys1882]

Originally Posted by rubecube

She can't give verbal consent if she's drunk. We went over this already. You can't legally consent to anything when intoxicated. If you're a sober dude who's cruising for waste cases at the bar, then you're pretty much a sexual predator.

That's a pretty murky area - who is determine if she's too drunk to consent or not?

[rubecube]

Originally Posted by 19Yzerman19

Well, I don't think I will simply because I have other things I'd rather spend my time on, but feel free to give me the coles notes version of the circumstances in which a rape victim will act as if s/he is a fully consenting participant who is enjoying the experience and actually not be consenting.

Fear and coercion are the primary reasons. Fear can encompass a wide variety of things from fear of physical assault, to fear of pissing off a significant other, etc.

Sure, but by that point you're pretty much engaged in the act, aren't you? What I meant was it's a bit awkward to ask permission beforehand, in the lead-up. It strikes me as an odd scenario for a guy to ask a girl if she likes what he's doing mid-coitus, and have her say no, I didn't want you to do this - why not say so beforehand? Do you really need to be asked first?

I don't know, I've always found stuff "You want me to blah blah your blah blah" or some similar vernacular during the clothes on period has never hurt my chances.

I realize this topic is a minefield but there has to be some sort of middle ground of sanity here. Is the word "yes" endowed with some magical significance? If someone can indicate in every non-verbal way imaginable, that they are a consensual participant in sexual congress, but not actually consent, why can they not also say "yes" without consenting?

Right, and I think I did stray a little off course and confused people a bit. There are obviously heat of the moment things that happen, or if you're with someone you're familiar with, etc., where people are mutually consenting via their own physical interactions. My point was more for the one guy who basically said "No doesn't alway mean no." If a chick says "no" then stop. If you're unsure, ask.

[rubecube]

Originally Posted by Coys1882

That's a pretty murky area - who is determine if she's too drunk to consent or not?

Visibly intoxicated is generally the standard. If you didn't know she was drunk you could possibly claim mens rea.

[polak]

This rape topic has come up a few times and its always the same suspects trying to conceive a way where the accused could still be accused of rape still.

Ridiculous.

"Well if she had a glass of wine at dinner and he didnt then technically it could still be rape."

[rubecube]

Originally Posted by polak

This rape topic has come up a few times and its always the same suspects trying to conceive a way where the accused could still be accused of rape still.

Ridiculous.

"Well if she had a glass of wine at dinner and he didnt then technically it could still be rape."

Actually it's generally the usual rape-apologists looking for any excuse to bring up false-accusations that provoke the discussion. To the naked eye, and based on the reporting, it doesn't sound like rape, but we have the false-accusation crowd crying "innocent until proven guilty!" for the accuser but immediately convicting the potential victim.

EDIT: And I don't see how pointing out how the law works is conceiving a way for the accused to be convicted. If the evidence is there, he'll walk. Like I said, only 1 in 10 rape cases end in a conviction, so the odds are on your side.

[polak]

Yeah innocent until proven guilty.

Crazy concept.

[Weiser Wonder]

Originally Posted by ken0042

The last time this discussion came up, the CP poll showed the percentage of men falsely accused as being higher than 2-4%. Although not a scientific poll, the numbers were telling.

The obvious problem with that poll is just because someone thinks they were falsely accused, doesn't mean they were actually falsely accused.

It's clear from this thread a lot of people on CP have no idea what constitutes consent.

[Coach]

Originally Posted by rubecube

I'm pretty sure I said verbal. Like I said before, 9/10 you could be right, and maybe you are someone who can take a hint when a girl's not really interested. I'm just advocating for what's in everyone's best interests.

How does a verbal protect me from anything more than just making the assumption that the girl taking off my pants is consenting to sex? Should I record all my conversations with women?

If someone ever handed me a document to sign before sex I would be reading it thoroughly for the letters "HIV". That is if I hadn't decided to leave already.

[nickerjones]

Originally Posted by Coys1882

My opinion on this looks like its consensual but I'm not really buying that this girl knows what's going on. I'm not convinced a 20 year old wants some random going down on her on a public street and I'm also not sure this girl is even aware where she is. She might think she's in a bedroom or something - let's all be honest, we've all been drunk enough to not really know what's going on around us.

Either way I wish one of these guys filming would have asked if she was ok and told the guy to maybe treat this girl with a little more respect.

Yeah she definitely seems drunk but doesnt he seem a bit drunk too? I am not sure how people would view this, when she grabbed his head it looks like she is into it and enjoying it. It looks like the might also be talking/kissing at some point.