A Scientist Debunks The 'Magic' Of Vitamins And Supplements

[Ozy_Flame]

Originally Posted by puckluck2

I never claimed anything. I simply said my doctor advised me to take some. My doctor is well trained and has a tremendous amount of education so I'll trust he isn't going to advise something he wouldn't feel comfortable with taking himself.

My family physician of 30 years also advised me to take multi-vitamins as well, and since it seems to work for me and my doctor recommends I take it, I believe I'm doing what's best for my body. That said, the most helpful component in the vitamins may be Vitamin D (my doc recommends supplements for this too, which I take) but that's definitely a good debate point.

[puckluck2]

Originally Posted by PsYcNeT

Support what? That I want to see the data (much as Troutman requested) that "science has proven over and over that multi vitamins have wonderful positive effects".

He dodged the request for data by citing anecdotal appeal to authority, which isn't an argument.

You should stick to sarcastic replies.

Multi-vitamins weren't created by cave men. I think a couple scientists might have had a hand in creating them and it wasn't for the negative effect.

[Mean Mr. Mustard]

Originally Posted by puckluck2

I never claimed anything. I simply said my doctor advised me to take some. My doctor is well trained and has a tremendous amount of education so I'll trust he isn't going to advise something he wouldn't feel comfortable with taking himself.

What if two equally trained doctors have contradictory opinions? What if a doctor with greater credentials disagrees with your doctor?

I actually did some legwork and looked into a few of the articles on pubmed - I won't repost the articles in their entirety here due to copywrite issues but if other people have access and are interested I encourage you to read them.

Macpherson H, Pipingas A, Pase MP (2013) Multivitamin-multimineral supplementation and mortality: a meta-analysis of randomized controlled trials. American Journal of Clinical Nutrition. 97(2):437-44. doi: 10.3945/ajcn.112.049304.

"Although the current meta-analysis suggests that MVMM can be used safely, the available evidence does not suggest that MVMMs protect against all-cause mortality, mortality due to vascular disease, or mortality due to cancer. Although a trend was found for MVMM supplementation to reduce the risk of all-cause mortality when used for primary prevention, this result did not reach statistical significance." (p. 442).

And one that has a contradictory opinion and this one is free so read up.

J. Michael Gaziano, MD, MPH; Howard D. Sesso, ScD, MPH; William G. Christen, ScD; Vadim Bubes, PhD; Joanne P. Smith, BA; Jean MacFadyen, BA; Miriam Schvartz, MD; JoAnn E. Manson, MD, DrPH; Robert J. Glynn, ScD; Julie E. Buring, ScD. (2012). Multivitamins in the Prevention of Cancer in MenThe Physicians' Health Study II Randomized Controlled Trial. Journal of the American Medical Association. 308(18), 1871-1880. doi:10.1001/jama.2012.14641.
"In this large-scale, randomized, placebo-controlled trial among middle-aged and older men, long-term daily multivitamin use had a modest but statistically significant reduction in the primary end point of total cancer after more than a decade of treatment and follow-up."

[jammies]

Originally Posted by puckluck2

You're a nurse or an engineer or whatever you are you're not in any authority to tell people that all multivitamins are bad especially when there are doctors still advising their patients to take them.

I don't see anyone claiming "all multivitamins are bad", so maybe your argument is completely irrelevant and you are seeing what you want to see, and not what's actually there.

[puckluck2]

Originally Posted by Mean Mr. Mustard

What if two equally trained doctors have contradictory opinions? What if a doctor with greater credentials disagrees with your doctor?

It happens, two doctors will frequently disagree on a subject. Same goes with scientists. the person can then make his own personal opinion onto what they want to put in their body.

But where are these studies this scientist is trying to tell? I'm still waiting. Is it in his book he is selling for profit?

[troutman]

Originally Posted by puckluck2

Is it in his book he is selling for profit?

Vitamins are not free.

[Ozy_Flame]

Originally Posted by jammies

I don't see anyone claiming "all multivitamins are bad", so maybe your argument is completely irrelevant and you are seeing what you want to see, and not what's actually there.

Heh. Irony.

[puckluck2]

Originally Posted by troutman

Vitamins are not free.

Neither is cancer medicine.

[Muta]

Originally Posted by puckluck2

It happens, two doctors will frequently disagree on a subject. Same goes with scientists. the person can then make his own personal opinion onto what they want to put in their body.

Even better is him claiming the the doctor making the orginial claim has greater credentials than your doctor. That'a s pretty dangerous thing to assume.

Isn't that along the lines of "Appeal to authority pales in comparison to hard data."

Those in glass houses...

[PsYcNeT]

To be fair, GPs aren't typically on the forefront of medical advances.

[Radio]

Originally Posted by puckluck2

Multi-vitamins weren't created by cave men. I think a couple scientists might have had a hand in creating them and it wasn't for the negative effect.

Heroine was used in children's cough medicine when it was first created. Things that are discovered/created with good intentions can turn out to be bad.

My wife and I take One a Day multi-vitamins, but I think I'll stop.

[jammies]

Originally Posted by Ozy_Flame

Heh. Irony.

I'm pretty sure you did claim you "didn't care what anybody said", which is what I have been mocking you for, whereas irony would be, for example, saying "Heh. Irony.", after arguing irrelevancies like one's personal experience with vitamins being the evidentiary bee's knees, if not maybe even her elbows.

[REDVAN]

What is the consensus for pre-natal vitamins? Our doctor has recommended them to my wife even though we are not trying to get pregnant yet... what about pre-fathering vitamins I hope that is not a thing.

[Ozy_Flame]

Originally Posted by jammies

I'm pretty sure you did claim you "didn't care what anybody said", which is what I have been mocking you for, whereas irony would be, for example, saying "Heh. Irony.", after arguing irrelevancies like one's personal experience with vitamins being the evidentiary bee's knees, if not maybe even her elbows.

See this is the ironic part - you argue about people only wanting to see the arguments they want to see, yet you follow the exact same argument style you're arguing against. Hell, it's not even ironic; it's just hypocritical.

I have never claimed my anecdote is the evidence for effective vitamins, the be-all end-all of their success. I have maintained my position this whole time that they work for me, however they work, which you can't seem to understand, or refuse to understand. It's sad.

I have never claimed they are universally effective, which you seem to love spinning that way.

[PsYcNeT]

Originally Posted by Ozy_Flame

See this is the ironic part - you argue about people only wanting to see the arguments they want to see, yet you follow the exact same argument style you're arguing against. Hell, it's not even ironic; it's just hypocritical.

I have never claimed my anecdote is the evidence for effective vitamins, the be-all end-all of their success. I have maintained my position this whole time that they work for me, however they work, which you can't seem to understand, or refuse to understand. It's sad.

So you admit you're just repeating yourself.

[Mean Mr. Mustard]

Originally Posted by Muta

Even better is him claiming the the doctor making the orginial claim has greater credentials than your doctor. That'a s pretty dangerous thing to assume.

Isn't that along the lines of "Appeal to authority pales in comparison to hard data."

Those in glass houses...

Wait, I said what now? I didn't make any such claims, his doctor could be the greatest doctor in the world, on the forefront of research on the issue of vitamins for all I know. But to make the argument that my doctor told me to do this and as such I shall do this because he is ever so smart is not overly convincing.

[Ozy_Flame]

Originally Posted by PsYcNeT

So you admit you're just repeating yourself.

Yeah, I am repeating myself. Some people just don't get the message. Thick skulls or something.

[Mean Mr. Mustard]

Originally Posted by REDVAN

What is the consensus for pre-natal vitamins? Our doctor has recommended them to my wife even though we are not trying to get pregnant yet... what about pre-fathering vitamins I hope that is not a thing.

Folic acid supplementation reduces the risk of spina bifida and they are highly recommended as a result for women who are attempting to get pregnant. Also iron supplementation due to the increased production of blood/blood volume secondary to carrying a baby.

[TorqueDog]

Originally Posted by Kavy

Doesn't matter.

If I take a pill and the pill solves the problem I want it to, because of how it is suppose to work, Great!

If it solves the problem because the human brain is much more complex then anyone though, and through the placebo effect the problem gets solved - Great!

Point is, I don't care if a pill causes a placebo effect to solve my problem, if it works it works.

If you perceive it to work, great, but at least be honest that you actually have no friggin' clue instead of holding this arrogant position that "I don't care what anyone says, it works". If people don't like being called out for your delusions, then maybe you should re-evaluate them. That's my problem. Certainty without any reason to be.

[Thor]

Originally Posted by puckluck2

It happens, two doctors will frequently disagree on a subject. Same goes with scientists. the person can then make his own personal opinion onto what they want to put in their body.

But where are these studies this scientist is trying to tell? I'm still waiting. Is it in his book he is selling for profit?

Its all in the original article, and the 2nd article I posted below it, assuming you did not read them?

As I also mentioned, we are dealing with META analysis, META is when you take 100 studies done on say, Vitamin E and look at their results to see if there is statistical leanings one way or the other.

This is just one article by Paul Offit, however there are plenty of scientists as I also mentioned earlier quite concerned about what people have been doing with vitamins as the research is not supporting in most cases supplementation and especially not high dose vitamin use as became a mantra for Vitamin C, again posted in my original post about the genius who started this idea that high dose Vitamin C intake could do all kinds of miraculous things..

Here is a typical meta study chart, to give you a sense of why when talking META studies, scientists are referring to a long period of study, and many studies within them. Usually we are talking about 10 of thousands if not 100,000 of thousands of people in total in these META analyses.

Look at the high dosage Vitamin E studies, all show higher mortality than with control groups, worry some for people taking too much Vitamin E.

Spoiler!