What is Wrong with People

[J epworth]

Originally Posted by Ducay

To be fair (and I see where both sides are coming from), he's implying that we have a situation where all parties are drunk and underage. There might have been consent (not informed on anyones part). He's arguing how are the boys more liable if they're drunk too and everyone has "consented" and isnt being forced. Obviously we don't know the answer but Im sure its been set through case law already, Id be interested to see the ruling.

For the record, how do we know she was blackout drunk anyways? (not that it impacts it either way).

It is open for him to claim that he honestly but mistakenly believed she was consenting, however, this cannot be induced by alcohol because our criminal code does not allow self-induced states to be defences. So if the court accepts that he honestly believed she was consenting (this need not be reaonable belief but an honest belief) then he would be aquitted, but there has to be other evidence, not his intoxicated state that led him to believe she was consenting.

The fact that she was drunk and possibly showing some kinds of consent would still probably fail because if she is that drunk and he knows it then he is either being reckless or wilfully blind by continuing his actions
(Source, my girlfriend who just wrote her Criminal Law final 2 days ago)

[polak]

Which is kinda messed up and what drives my whole confusion on the matter... One party can reneg using alcohol as an excuse and the other cannot. What if they both claim rape? Plausable?

Guess it boils down to what CC said, everyone needs to be careful in drunken encounters

[Ducay]

Originally Posted by polak

Guess it boils down to what CC said, everyone needs to be careful in drunken encounters

Ah yes, care and prudence are qualities indeed the best exhibited by drunk people. Here here!

[J epworth]

Originally Posted by J epworth kendal

It is open for him to claim that he honestly but mistakenly believed she was consenting, however, this cannot be induced by alcohol because our criminal code does not allow self-induced states to be defences. So if the court accepts that he honestly believed she was consenting (this need not be reaonable belief but an honest belief) then he would be aquitted, but there has to be other evidence, not his intoxicated state that led him to believe she was consenting.

The fact that she was drunk and possibly showing some kinds of consent would still probably fail because if she is that drunk and he knows it then he is either being reckless or wilfully blind by continuing his actions
(Source, my girlfriend who just wrote her Criminal Law final 2 days ago)

Add onto my point:

Also, major point to remember is it is crown v. accused and not complainant v. accused, the complainant is essentially a witness, she does not have to prove anything herself.

Also the actus reus/ mens rea are important to distinguish. It is pretty much impossible for an accused to deny actus reus (The actus reus of Sexual assult is that there was touching of a sexual nature and that there was no consent.... this is essentially proved by simply asking the complainant if she was willing...) Unless they actually didn't do anything, like no touching or they don't believe the complainant (like the court doesn't believe her)

[polak]

Originally Posted by Ducay

Ah yes, care and prudence are qualities indeed the best exhibited by drunk people. Here here!

I'll drink to that!

[Handsome B. Wonderful]

This whole situation smells bad and is quickly turning in to a witch-hunt.

[Huntingwhale]

Everytime there is a thread like this where someone has been bullied to the point of suicide, its the same debate.

-People side with vigilante justice since the justice system doesn't do their job properly
-People say let the courts do their work
-People say innocent people might get hurt if vigilatism takes place
-Rinse and repeat

This whole situation is tragic, preventable, and beyond disgusting. The rapists AND bullyers afterwards should all be ashamed. And in this day and age of technology and digital fingerprints, its a travesty that even with photographic evidence and text messages, the police didn't have enough evidence to even make an arrest. I'm not going to pretend to know just how those photos looked, but something is just not right when not even an arrest can be made.

IMO once that happens, Anonymous has my support. Clearly the system has failed the poor victim and her family. And if 4 rapists are allowed to walk free, absolutely society should me allowed to know how they are.

At the end of the day, everyone loses and an innocent girl is dead. And the fact that those 4 people might potentially get away is infuriating.

Go get 'em Anonymous.

[Flamenspiel]

^^ I agree wholheartedly, the scales of justice need to be rebalanced here. The question remains, why no investigation when there is actual video evidence, what are they hiding?

[polak]

Originally Posted by Huntingwhale

Everytime there is a thread like this where someone has been bullied to the point of suicide, its the same debate.

-People side with vigilante justice since the justice system doesn't do their job properly
-People say let the courts do their work
-People say innocent people might get hurt if vigilatism takes place
-Rinse and repeat

This whole situation is tragic, preventable, and beyond disgusting. The rapists AND bullyers afterwards should all be ashamed. And in this day and age of technology and digital fingerprints, its a travesty that even with photographic evidence and text messages, the police didn't have enough evidence to even make an arrest. I'm not going to pretend to know just how those photos looked, but something is just not right when not even an arrest can be made.

IMO once that happens, Anonymous has my support. Clearly the system has failed the poor victim and her family. And if 4 rapists are allowed to walk free, absolutely society should me allowed to know how they are.

At the end of the day, everyone loses and an innocent girl is dead. And the fact that those 4 people might potentially get away is infuriating.

Go get 'em Anonymous.

Umm... If there is a lack of evidence to convict the accused, wouldn't they be considered innocent?

You kinda placed yourself into the vigilantie side.

Originally Posted by Flamenspiel

^^ I agree wholheartedly, the scales of justice need to be rebalanced here. The question remains, why no investigation when there is actual video evidence, what are they hiding?

Maybe the video proves that no investigation is warranted?

[valo403]

Originally Posted by Huntingwhale

Everytime there is a thread like this where someone has been bullied to the point of suicide, its the same debate.

-People side with vigilante justice since the justice system doesn't do their job properly
-People say let the courts do their work
-People say innocent people might get hurt if vigilatism takes place
-Rinse and repeat

This whole situation is tragic, preventable, and beyond disgusting. The rapists AND bullyers afterwards should all be ashamed. And in this day and age of technology and digital fingerprints, its a travesty that even with photographic evidence and text messages, the police didn't have enough evidence to even make an arrest. I'm not going to pretend to know just how those photos looked, but something is just not right when not even an arrest can be made.

IMO once that happens, Anonymous has my support. Clearly the system has failed the poor victim and her family. And if 4 rapists are allowed to walk free, absolutely society should me allowed to know how they are.

At the end of the day, everyone loses and an innocent girl is dead. And the fact that those 4 people might potentially get away is infuriating.

Go get 'em Anonymous.

What is this evidence that you have that nobody else seems to have?

Why has the system clearly failed? Because the story you've constructed based upon scant evidence hasn't lead to arrests?

The allegations should have been thoroughly investigated, if they were not that is a massive failure and the case should be reopened, but we have no idea if that is the case.

The police may have turned every stone without finding enough to substantiate a charge, if that's the case what do you suggest was wrong and what do you suggest we do?

[Huntingwhale]

Originally Posted by polak

Umm... If there is a lack of evidence to convict the accused, wouldn't they be considered innocent?

You kinda placed yourself into the vigilantie side.



Maybe the video proves that no investigation is warranted?

I'll be honest with you. Yeah, sometimes I do.


Regardless, the point I am trying to make is that if 4 rapists get away with a crime like this, I'm on Anonymous' side. I understand not everyone is going to agree with me, and that's fine. That's why I usually don't get involved in debates like this, because I know I'm probably in the minority.

All IMO of course.

[polak]

Okay but understand that you might be going after 4 relatively innocent (they did still start the bullying by sharing the pics) guys and trying to ruin their lives, just because potentially, one girl regretted doing something.

[Flamenspiel]

Originally Posted by polak

Maybe the video proves that no investigation is warranted?

I just don't buy the story put forth by the local cops, based on what i have heard from both sides further investigation is necessary.

From my perspective and my experience, i simply don't that trust the local authorities have investigated this sufficiently. There is enough smoke there to indicate that an authority outside the jurisdiction should look into it, and if that is not happening, pressure needs to be put on them to do so.

When this sort of violence occurs, the parents line up on each side and the more powerful connected side often gets their way. I believe the whole issue of internet bullying and so on is such a red herring in this case, its a local battle for power and needs someone outside to get involved.

So the petition and the actions of anon could help that along, things need to be brought back into balance.

[Huntingwhale]

Originally Posted by polak

Okay but understand that you might be going after 4 relatively innocent (they did still start the bullying by sharing the pics) guys and trying to ruin their lives, just because potentially, one girl regretted doing something.

What? One girl regretted doing something? Like getting raped?? I'm not too sure I understand what you're trying to say.

[polak]

Originally Posted by Flamenspiel

I just don't buy the story put forth by the local cops, based on what i have heard from both sides further investigation is necessary.

From my perspective and my experience, i simply don't that trust the local authorities have investigated this sufficiently. There is enough smoke there to indicate that an authority outside the jurisdiction should look into it, and if that is not happening, pressure needs to be put on them to do so.

Wanting them to reopen the investigation is completely fair, but until a conviction is laid down, naming the boys is unjustified.

Originally Posted by Huntingwhale

What? One girl regretted doing something? Like getting raped?? I'm not too sure I understand what you're trying to say.

Potentially, she regretted consenting after the pics leaked and claimed rape.

Once again, innocent until proven guilty.

[mykalberta]

I will wait to comment on this situation until after I see how the rape trial goes if goes on at all. I am perplexed as to why the mother is asking to leave the boys alone if in fact they did rape her daughter- but I guess that will be answered in the trial - one way or the other.

If there are pictures of the "rape" it seems pretty cut and dry. If its just a picture of her having sexual relations with 1 boy and then that getting posted and her feeling embarrassed/ashamed then this is a 100% different type of conversation.

[puckluck2]

Originally Posted by polak

Potentially, she regretted consenting after the pics leaked and claimed rape.

Once again, innocent until proven guilty.

Regardless, they're guilty of a crime, whether it be rape, harassment, sexual harassment. They'll be convicted of a crime.

[polak]

Originally Posted by puckluck2

Regardless, they're guilty of a crime, whether it be rape, harassment, sexual harassment. They'll be convicted of a crime.

For the pics? Yeah probably unless it wasn't them who took them and shared them.

[Flamenspiel]

Originally Posted by polak

Wanting them to reopen the investigation is completely fair, but until a conviction is laid down, naming the boys is unjustified

I don't necessarily agree with that as the girl was named without her consent when they posted the private data online(and its clear that this is the case).

I say come out with it and let them sue for libel if the 4 boys take issue with that. I certainly don't agree to summary justice, however the perps have no right to a sort of "publication ban" or any sort of data privacy as they put the data out there in the first place.

If the data is out there, anon actually has the right to post it and let people decide. If they hacked into a database and stole PI/SPI thats something else. However, If you commit a crime and post the data, its out there, too bad.

[puckluck2]

Originally Posted by Flamenspiel

I don't necessarily agree with that as the girl was named without her consent when they posted the private data online(and its clear that this is the case).

I say come out with it and let them sue for libel if the 4 boys take issue with that. I certainly don't agree to summary justice, however the perps have no right to a sort of "publication ban" or any sort of data privacy as they put the data out there in the first place.

If the data is out there, anon actually has the right to post it and let people decide. If they hacked into a database and stole PI/SPI thats something else. If you commit a crime and post the data, its out there, too bad.

No, they don't have the "right", actually,