Quebec Riots start up again

[Bill Bumface]

Originally Posted by Devils'Advocate

I too worked my way through university. I put in a lot of hours at minimum wage to work my way through. However, I can truely say that those that didn't have to work their way through and had mommy and daddy pay for it had an easier time of it. I didn't have near the time to study and many of my papers were rushed because I had time limitations.

God forbid you learn about hard work and time management while in University! It sounds horrible!

[Bertuzzied]

It's times like this where i wish I wasn't Asian. My kids can pay for their own post secondary schooling like I did. I don't want to buy any more RESPs. I wanna use that money and get a NSX! hehe

[jammies]

I knew nobody would bother arguing that education is, in and of itself, a net benefit over its cost. Much easier to be outraged over minutiae and tangents; if you accept that education should be free, then the numbers behind who goes to university, community college and trade school are incidental. These same arguments were made against universal grade-schooling back in the day, and were equally misguided then: we live in an increasingly complex world where high-school education is not adequate to the needs of business and government, so it will end up costing us more not to ensure universal higher education than it will to work towards it.

If the idea that somebody, somewhere, might waste a dollar they didn't earn makes you apoplectic, by all means continue with your anecdotal stories of how you made it thru school cleaning toilets and winning wet t-shirt contests. I'm sure your experience applies universally to everyone, so kudos on finding that unanswerable argument.

[transplant99]

Originally Posted by jammies

I knew nobody would bother arguing that education is, in and of itself, a net benefit over its cost. Much easier to be outraged over minutiae and tangents; if you accept that education should be free, then the numbers behind who goes to university, community college and trade school are incidental. These same arguments were made against universal grade-schooling back in the day, and were equally misguided then: we live in an increasingly complex world where high-school education is not adequate to the needs of business and government, so it will end up costing us more not to ensure universal higher education than it will to work towards it.

If the idea that somebody, somewhere, might waste a dollar they didn't earn makes you apoplectic, by all means continue with your anecdotal stories of how you made it thru school cleaning toilets and winning wet t-shirt contests. I'm sure your experience applies universally to everyone, so kudos on finding that unanswerable argument.

The thread is about rioting in QC over a 70 dollar increase in tuition and how they seem entitled beyond anyone else.

But nice rant all the same.

[Canehdianman]

I finished law school 6 years ago with 91k in debt.

Made my last loan payment in October.

Morons rioting over $70 in the province with the lowest tuition in Canada and highly dependent on transfer payments from my tax dollars can DIAF.

[jammies]

The question is if their "entitlement" is reasonable. Maybe a couple classes in inductive logic would've helped you parse that argument.

[crazy_eoj]

Originally Posted by jammies

The question is if their "entitlement" is reasonable. Maybe a couple classes in inductive logic would've helped you parse that argument.

Too expensive. I want my inductive logic courses for free. Can you send me a cheque so we can debate on your terms please?

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by jammies

I knew nobody would bother arguing that education is, in and of itself, a net benefit over its cost. Much easier to be outraged over minutiae and tangents; if you accept that education should be free, then the numbers behind who goes to university, community college and trade school are incidental. These same arguments were made against universal grade-schooling back in the day, and were equally misguided then: we live in an increasingly complex world where high-school education is not adequate to the needs of business and government, so it will end up costing us more not to ensure universal higher education than it will to work towards it.

If the idea that somebody, somewhere, might waste a dollar they didn't earn makes you apoplectic, by all means continue with your anecdotal stories of how you made it thru school cleaning toilets and winning wet t-shirt contests. I'm sure your experience applies universally to everyone, so kudos on finding that unanswerable argument.

Free education is not affordable, there also has to be a paid commitment from the student. I don't believe post secondary education is a divine free right. Your paying a very small part of your educational costs, its not like your paying the whole thing, your getting what a 75% free ride at least.

But I'll tell you what, we'll do soviet style free education.

I'll give you free education in exchange I get to tell you what your going to get your degree in, and you have to agree to a 70% tax rate on your income after you graduate.

[Makarov]

Originally Posted by Canehdianman

I finished law school 6 years ago with 91k in debt.

Made my last loan payment in October.

Hooray for you?

Originally Posted by Canehdianman

Morons rioting over $70 in the province with the lowest tuition in Canada and highly dependent on transfer payments from my tax dollars can DIAF.

Clearly you do not live in Quebec. Therefore, students protesting in Montreal have no impact your life in anyway. Quebec allocating its provincial budget one way or another does not impact your life in any meaningful way.

With all of this in mind, when you hope that people die in a fire, it makes you look like an ranting, frothing lunatic.

[afc wimbledon]

Originally Posted by jammies

I knew nobody would bother arguing that education is, in and of itself, a net benefit over its cost. Much easier to be outraged over minutiae and tangents; if you accept that education should be free, then the numbers behind who goes to university, community college and trade school are incidental. These same arguments were made against universal grade-schooling back in the day, and were equally misguided then: we live in an increasingly complex world where high-school education is not adequate to the needs of business and government, so it will end up costing us more not to ensure universal higher education than it will to work towards it.

If the idea that somebody, somewhere, might waste a dollar they didn't earn makes you apoplectic, by all means continue with your anecdotal stories of how you made it thru school cleaning toilets and winning wet t-shirt contests. I'm sure your experience applies universally to everyone, so kudos on finding that unanswerable argument.

Uni doesn't make anyone smarter or any better equiped to handle the increasingly complex world we live in, nor, in the case of most courses, does it generally add to the skill set the student.
The vast majority of Uni courses are mearly an extension of grade 12, they prove the student is in fact able to read and write and put a bit of effort into a project.

People have inate ability, IQ if you will, or though it is more complex than that alone, the bright ones will work out problems, the dumb ones wont, mostly Uni ensures the middle class stay on top of the plebs in the same way it used to ensure the upper class stayed on top of the emerging middle class 300 years ago.

As a country we would be far better off if we dropped funding completely for about half of all courses at a Bacholer level and took all those students and sent them to trade school, we would be better off with a strong manufacturing base than a vast pool of tertiary jobs at starbucks employing hordes of communication majors.

[polak]

Originally Posted by Makarov

Clearly you do not live in Quebec. Therefore, students protesting in Montreal have no impact your life in anyway. Quebec allocating its provincial budget one way or another does not impact your life in any meaningful way.

It does when they continue to increase their deficit and turn to the ROC for help.

Their attitude is what makes me wish they would seperate and that Canada would cut them cold turkey. They would crumble. It'd be Greece 2.0

[MoneyGuy]

I remember like it was yesterday the referendum in...um, going to say 1995 (maybe '96). I was nervous that Quebec might vote to separate, and I didn't want them to divide this great country.

Now I pretty much feel, "Oh, you don't like it here. Don't let the door hit your ass on the way out!"

I'm really hating those entitled Quebecers. Oh, and take your full share of the national debt with you, give up those transfer payments and let's see how you manage with your sky-high-and-rising taxes.

[Makarov]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

Free education is not affordable, there also has to be a paid commitment from the student. I don't believe post secondary education is a divine free right. Your paying a very small part of your educational costs, its not like your paying the whole thing, your getting what a 75% free ride at least.

In fact, nationally, it is ~60% now, the lowest amount in Canadian history.

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

But I'll tell you what, we'll do soviet style free education.

I'll give you free education in exchange I get to tell you what your going to get your degree in, and you have to agree to a 70% tax rate on your income after you graduate.

... or why not consider a reasonable example like Sweden?

[Makarov]

Originally Posted by polak

It does when they continue to increase their deficit and turn to the ROC for help.

Their attitude is what makes me wish they would seperate and that Canada would cut them cold turkey. They would crumble. It'd be Greece 2.0

When do they turn to the ROC for help? Please don't make me explain how equalization operates on this forum again. It is so tiresome.

[jammies]

Originally Posted by crazy_eoj

Too expensive. I want my inductive logic courses for free. Can you send me a cheque so we can debate on your terms please?

Just vote for me, comrade, and I'll make sure your education gets upgraded to decent standards! It could be several years, though, before all the libertarianism is successfully flushed out to allow for rational thought.

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

Free education is not affordable, there also has to be a paid commitment from the student.

So paying 75% of fees is affordable, but not 100%? Why is that? Or is this another "argument" where you make a flat assertion and expect it won't be contradicted? I'll also note that "there has to be a paid commitment from the student" is also an assertion and not an argument.

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

I'll give you free education in exchange I get to tell you what your going to get your degree in, and you have to agree to a 70% tax rate on your income after you graduate.

The problem with trying to use a reductio ad absurdum argument is that you actually have to take someone's argument to its conclusion - since you are the one arguing for a "soviet-style" education system, the only argument you're ridiculing is your own.

[jammies]

Originally Posted by afc wimbledon

As a country we would be far better off if we dropped funding completely for about half of all courses at a Bacholer level and took all those students and sent them to trade school, we would be better off with a strong manufacturing base than a vast pool of tertiary jobs at starbucks employing hordes of communication majors.

The "strong manufacturing base" ship sailed and sunk under an iceberg decades ago. I'm not saying trade schools aren't important, but if anything we should be loading up on maths, science, and information technologies courses and curricula and looking towards dominating those fields, as that is where the money and jobs are now and into the future. Of course, first you have to have a society that favours those things rather than accountants, bureaucrats and entertainers (not that those aren't important too, but none of them really create wealth as opposed to redistributing or administering it).

[peter12]

So, what exactly are these magic returns from post-secondary education that jammies seems to think our future depends upon? What about large classes, grade inflation? Do you have any answers?

[afc wimbledon]

Originally Posted by jammies

The "strong manufacturing base" ship sailed and sunk under an iceberg decades ago. I'm not saying trade schools aren't important, but if anything we should be loading up on maths, science, and information technologies courses and curricula and looking towards dominating those fields, as that is where the money and jobs are now and into the future. Of course, first you have to have a society that favours those things rather than accountants, bureaucrats and entertainers (not that those aren't important too, but none of them really create wealth as opposed to redistributing or administering it).

Got to disagree profoundly here, the lesson we should learn is from Germany, half the kids that are at uni right now would be better off learning how to auto cad and tig weld, the money is not in science or math, it is in exploiting science or math and that requires trades and a manufacturing base.

[afc wimbledon]

What you have to realise Jammies is education is like any other trade union, they will always assume they are essential, teachers always think getting students to go to Uni is the best for them because teachers are all middle class products of Uni, university researchers will always find ways of proving that university is best because that ensures their employment and, again,confiirms their life choices.

If you asked junkies to do a study on drugs they would find it should be legalised for the same reason.

[Senator Clay Davis]

Originally Posted by afc wimbledon

If you asked junkies to do a study on drugs they would find it should be legalised for the same reason.

Umm, I could be wrong be I think you mean if you did a study of police (and COs and anyone related) they'd tell you keeping drugs illegal is good because it keeps a lot of them employed. Junkies are gonna get high either way; some cops may no longer be employed if drugs became legal.