The pope is supposed to be chosen by god, as such asking them to 'step aside' undermines the whole theological foundation of the church. In fact his resigbation under any circumstance undermines it, essentially he/they are admitting either he wasn't picked by God or God screwed up and picked the wrong dude.
Lots of things undermine the whole theological foundation of the church, like the age of the earth; evolution; the omniscience/omnipotence/benevolence paradox... lucky for them, their followers are quite adept at ignoring these things.
I have a feeling you're being facetious, but in case not: are you ####ing serious?
As one of the oldest institutions in the world, I bet there is a metric ####-ton of historical documents and artifacts the church has been sitting on, of immeasurable historical value. Scandals, unbiased (or biased) truths, personal accounts, literature, etc., etc., etc., etc. The potential wealth of knowledge boggles my mind.
Of course, there could be 1000 years of newspapers piled up.
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Oh man, I would love to have access to that. We're not talking all churchy stuff here. They have taken, stolen, inherited, amazing bits of stuff from nearly all around the world, often to suppress it. Scientific journals, 'pagan' writings and philosophies, political decrees and information. You'd have access to secrets and knowledge galore. And of course a bunch of the dark side of the church too.
Getting loose in there would be incredible.
EDIT: Actually I'm confusing/combining that with the Vatican Library it turns out. Which is what I'd want to see, though the archives would be quite enlightening too.
I have a feeling you're being facetious, but in case not: are you ####ing serious?
As one of the oldest institutions in the world, I bet there is a metric ####-ton of historical documents and artifacts the church has been sitting on, of immeasurable historical value. Scandals, unbiased (or biased) truths, personal accounts, literature, etc., etc., etc., etc. The potential wealth of knowledge boggles my mind.
Of course, there could be 1000 years of newspapers piled up.
I doubt there is anything in there so interesting that we haven't heard about it already, any Scandal worth knowing about has most likely been leaked long ago. humankind simply can't keep a great secret,at least a secret that isn't some sort of fairytale anyway.
Of course there's the flakes of the world like George Nory who believe the Vatican is hiding hundreds of years of Alien existence proof.
Hogwash...like the church itself!
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...Actually I'm confusing/combining that with the Vatican Library it turns out. Which is what I'd want to see, though the archives would be quite enlightening too....
What you are confusing here is FACT and MYTH. Both the Vatican Library (Bibliotheca Apostolica Vaticana) and the Secret Vatican Archives (Archivio Segreto Vaticano) are Catholic institutions that have maintained open scholarly access for many years now.
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Originally Posted by Daradon
Oh man, I would love to have access to that. We're not talking all churchy stuff here. They have taken, stolen, inherited, amazing bits of stuff from nearly all around the world, often to suppress it...
Such as what? Even though I believe that the well organised, wealthy, and strictly hierarchical Catholic Church is probably the only establishment on the entire planet that would be capable of such high-level conspiracies, I am exceedingly skeptical that there has ever been even a single one—certainly not anything like what you have implied here.
I'm curious: What sorts of things do you imagine that the Catholic church has suppressed through theft and secrecy? What sort of clandestine truths do you imagine would be verified through access to what presides in the Bibliotheca and/or the Archivio?
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Originally Posted by woob
"...harem warfare? like all your wives dressup and go paintballing?"
What you are confusing here is FACT and MYTH. Both the Vatican Library (Bibliotheca Apostolica Vaticana) and the Secret Vatican Archives (Archivio Segreto Vaticano) are Catholic institutions that have maintained open scholarly access for many years now.
Such as what? Even though I believe that the well organised, wealthy, and strictly hierarchical Catholic Church is probably the only establishment on the entire planet that would be capable of such high-level conspiracies, I am exceedingly skeptical that there has ever been even a single one—certainly not anything like what you have implied here.
I'm curious: What sorts of things do you imagine that the Catholic church has suppressed through theft and secrecy? What sort of clandestine truths do you imagine would be verified through access to what presides in the Bibliotheca and/or the Archivio?
Believe it or not, some people actually watched the DaVinci Code and thhought it was a documentary.
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The pope is supposed to be chosen by god, as such asking them to 'step aside' undermines the whole theological foundation of the church. In fact his resigbation under any circumstance undermines it, essentially he/they are admitting either he wasn't picked by God or God screwed up and picked the wrong dude.
I'm usually on the areligious side of things but this, like many attacks on the Catholic church and their dogma and traditions is a false assumption that the fabric of their system is that thin or that this means anything to a person of Catholic faith to the extent that it would trouble their belief in God.
Popes are elected by Cardinals who are people and whom the Church easily accepts are only human, are fallible, and can make mistakes or fall to bad judgement and temptation.
Popes have resigned before in the past and it's never taken down the Church (although it's been involved in some exciting schisms and political machinations).
Celestine IV resigned after 5 months in 1241 because he wanted to live a more humble life and live as a hermit. Sucks for him that his successor decided to throw him in prison where he rotted and died.
Go read up on the history of Popes, it's damn interesting stuff. If anything, it's not the resignation of Benedict XVI that casts a pale on the religion but rather when you look at the history of the Papacy - that is where the plain evidence lies that there can be no divine claim to the position given how political, cruel, and hilariously human all of it is. It's like the Game of Thrones in real life.
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I think one of the Cardinals that was interviewed today made a interesting statement.
"The next Pope is going to have to hold the Church together"
I'm wondering if Benedict was a divisive force behind the scenes. He was certainly a controversial figure. When he was first elected he was hailed as the great reformer and a moderate. It turns out that wasn't true at all.
I'm beginning to think that he was asked to step aside for the good of the church.
I guess that depends on relative perspective. He may have been more moderate than some, but they would have to have been serious hard-liners to make Benedict seem moderate.
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The Vatican is acknowledging for the first time that Pope Benedict XVI has had a pacemaker for years and that its battery was replaced a few months ago in secret.
Vatican spokesman Rev. Federico Lombardi said Benedict had the pacemaker installed “a long time” before he became pope in 2005. He called the latest medical procedure “routine.”
It was the first time the Vatican has mentioned a papal pacemaker.
Italian daily Il Sole 24 said the pope had the pacemaker procedure less than three months ago in a Rome hospital and did not miss any public appearances.
I guess that depends on relative perspective. He may have been more moderate than some, but they would have to have been serious hard-liners to make Benedict seem moderate.
He softened his stance on some issues, such as using condoms as a means of preventing disease. He said that they are "morally justifiable as a first step to a better solution", or something like that.
He has also greatly improved relations between Catholics and Jews, and politcally has created a strong relationship between The Vatican and the state of Israel.
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I'm usually on the areligious side of things but this, like many attacks on the Catholic church and their dogma and traditions is a false assumption that the fabric of their system is that thin or that this means anything to a person of Catholic faith to the extent that it would trouble their belief in God.
Popes are elected by Cardinals who are people and whom the Church easily accepts are only human, are fallible, and can make mistakes or fall to bad judgement and temptation.
Popes have resigned before in the past and it's never taken down the Church (although it's been involved in some exciting schisms and political machinations).
Celestine IV resigned after 5 months in 1241 because he wanted to live a more humble life and live as a hermit. Sucks for him that his successor decided to throw him in prison where he rotted and died.
Go read up on the history of Popes, it's damn interesting stuff. If anything, it's not the resignation of Benedict XVI that casts a pale on the religion but rather when you look at the history of the Papacy - that is where the plain evidence lies that there can be no divine claim to the position given how political, cruel, and hilariously human all of it is. It's like the Game of Thrones in real life.
The pope is, if you are a strict catholic, chosen by god and his edicts are holy writ, now of course many catholics probably don't believe this and I agree this won't bring down the church but it will be another blow to the
church, it undermines the position of the pope, if God choose him then why is he stepping down, if God didn't choose him then why the hell should anyone care what he thinks about abortion?
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The pope is, if you are a strict catholic, chosen by god and his edicts are holy writ...
I think you will find that virtually every Catholic also recognises a that despite his vaunted position as Christ's representative on earth, he is still a flawed human being. There is a common misconception that "holy writ" is the same as "perpetually true", and not subject to change or adaptation. Rightly or wrongly, Catholics—along with the majority of Protestant Christians—have a very nuanced understanding of papal and scriptural authority by which "holy writ" is fairly circumstantial, and frequently subject to revision and reinterpretation. If you read diachronically through the Councils, the Catechisms, and statements of doctrine from most churches you will discover that they are not static—they are adaptations of one another.
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Originally Posted by afc wimbledon
...now of course many catholics probably don't believe this and I agree this won't bring down the church but it will be another blow to the
church, it undermines the position of the pope...
Only in the eyes of those who are already strongly opposed to papal authority. I would expect that for the vast majority of catholics, and for the vast majority of observers who do not strike such an adversarial pose in the first place, this does nothing whatsoever to undermine the office. I think you will find that most Catholics, and most religious people generally have a much more tempered and realistic perspective of things, and not so rigidly black and white as you would imagine that they should.
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Originally Posted by afc wimbledon
...if God choose him then why is he stepping down...
Because historically—and this is at the very heart of Christian doctrine—it is believed that God prefers to work through people's weaknesses, flaws, and shortcomings in order to achieve his purposes. If anything, Benedict's resignation is a testimony to human frailty, and it will likely most commonly be interpreted by the church and sympathetic onlookers as such; there is no shame in surrendering to his insurmountable circumstances, regardless of whether or not he was "chosen by God". The Bible itself rigorously attests to the fragility and ineptitude of humanity, and read in a Christian context it celebrates the power of God through human weaknesses. Why should the pope be any different? Regardless of whether you believe it or not, why should God suddenly alter course from his well established modus operandi? I'm quite sure that no Catholic will lose any sleep at all over your insistence on this as an admittance failure, especially considering that you clearly have no real understanding of how the system works.
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Originally Posted by afc wimbledon
...if God didn't choose him then why the hell should anyone care what he thinks about abortion?
It's a question that no Catholic will ever even consider worth posing, because in their minds God DID choose him, and his decision to abdicate is not in any way a nullification of that choice. Your arbitrary insistence that the Church should do things to suit your expectations is nothing more than a straw man.
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Originally Posted by woob
"...harem warfare? like all your wives dressup and go paintballing?"
I'm curious: What sorts of things do you imagine that the Catholic church has suppressed through theft and secrecy? What sort of clandestine truths do you imagine would be verified through access to what presides in the Bibliotheca and/or the Archivio?
Well for starters, the wide spread sexual abuse of minors by priests and other hierarchy members throughout the entire globe that has been well documented by the Vatican.
I'm sure there are other people hoping for historical secrets and conspiracies, but that is still one bombshell of an issue despite it coming to light in the last decade. My guess is we've only seen the tip of the iceberg on that issue.
