Sales tax in Alberta?

[Makarov]

Originally Posted by yads

What I think those of us who are against raising taxes are proposing, is to first cut operational spending, then and only then should tax increases be looked at. We shouldn't be looking at a deficit and automatically assuming that revenue is the problem. When times are tough this should be the order of things:

1. cut expenses
2. raise revenues
3. raise debt

The order shouldn't be

1. raise debt
2. raise revenues
3. cut expenses

You state this as if it were a self-evident fact. It isn't. So why should that always be the order?

[Makarov]

Originally Posted by crazy_eoj

There is a reasonable argument that you should be able to find many more efficiencies in capital spending with larger populations.

As the populations grow they generally focus on urban areas, meaning less infrastructure is required per person and less focus on spreading capital to small outlying populations.

Hasn't been the case in Alberta.

In my view, the primary cause of increased spending by the Alberta government is the incredibly high cost of labour in Alberta. Sadly, this seems to be an unavoidable consequence of an overheated petro-economy.

[Senator Clay Davis]

Originally Posted by Makarov

In my view, the primary cause of increased spending by the Alberta government is the incredibly high cost of labour in Alberta. Sadly, this seems to be an unavoidable consequence of an overheated petro-economy.

Well there's this, but there's also the urban sprawl problem. Since Calgary has a ridiculous amount of urban sprawl, the cost of infrastructure automatically goes up because you have to build further out (always costs more to build out than up). So if you wanna blame anyone for that, blame people who want to live in the suburbs. Until that changes, you can't maximize efficiency.

[crazy_eoj]

Originally Posted by Makarov

In my view, the primary cause of increased spending by the Alberta government is the incredibly high cost of labour in Alberta. Sadly, this seems to be an unavoidable consequence of an overheated petro-economy.

Labour in Alberta is certainly not 75% higher than in the neighboring provinces.

[OzSome]

Please NO to Sales Tax in Alberta. The biggest thing to do for the Alberta Government is to have pay cut on those overpaid MLAs or whatever they call it. Also get rid of all the unnecessary expenses by government. I can hardly afford to buy some stuff right now with the money I make. I am sure I won't be the only one. So adding another 5% of the stuff you buy makes it harder to survive.

[yads]

Originally Posted by Makarov

You state this as if it were a self-evident fact. It isn't. So why should that always be the order?

Because this is what households, businesses, and other organizations do when times are tough.

[Senator Clay Davis]

Originally Posted by yads

Because this is what households, businesses, and other organizations do when times are tough.

Ahh yes, the single worst economic argument of them all. Governments need to run things like a business or like us and not like the government. But wait a minute...don't business finance almost everything through debt or stock offerings?And don't we afford houses and cars by accepting debt? So you're saying the government of Alberta should either offer stock (???) or go into debt? Cause saving the billions needed to afford these things means substantial, epic cuts in order to save the money required. So yeah, enjoy your 15 hour hospital wait going forward, but at least we'll afford things straight cash...Good God.

[WCan_Kid]

Originally Posted by Senator Clay Davis

Ahh yes, the single worst economic argument of them all. Governments need to run things like a business or like us and not like the government. But wait a minute...don't business finance almost everything through debt or stock offerings?And don't we afford houses and cars by accepting debt? So you're saying the government of Alberta should either offer stock (???) or go into debt? Cause saving the billions needed to afford these things means substantial, epic cuts in order to save the money required. So yeah, enjoy your 15 hour hospital wait going forward, but at least we'll afford things straight cash...Good God.

Either finance everything or cut all spending and spend cash only when available, there's no middle ground in your world? Good god is right...

[Senator Clay Davis]

Originally Posted by WCan_Kid

Either finance everything or cut all spending and spend cash only when available, there's no middle ground in your world? Good god is right...

Well yeah, thats the Wildrose way. Cut, cut cut and then we'll be able to afford everything. If only it were that easy, but unlike a business or a person, a government doesn't work like that in any way. But apparently just cutting will fix the issues in this province (like somehow the issue isn't over reliance on resource revenue, its excessive spending.) Spending cuts will not achieve anything close to balancing a budget, unless they are extremely deep cuts that result in drastic decreases in service offerings, which most people will be opposed to. People want it every single way possible rather than the realistic way.

[GP_Matt]

Originally Posted by Senator Clay Davis

Well yeah, thats the Wildrose way. Cut, cut cut and then we'll be able to afford everything. If only it were that easy, but unlike a business or a person, a government doesn't work like that in any way. But apparently just cutting will fix the issues in this province (like somehow the issue isn't over reliance on resource revenue, its excessive spending.) Spending cuts will not achieve anything close to balancing a budget, unless they are extremely deep cuts that result in drastic decreases in service offerings, which most people will be opposed to. People want it every single way possible rather than the realistic way.

Instead of the PC way of bury your head in the sand and pretend everything is normal while buying votes in successive elections. Waiting for things to become so terrible that the only solution is debt or new taxes.

They have been spending beyond their means for years and only now are they coming to terms with what they have created.

[Senator Clay Davis]

Originally Posted by GP_Matt

Instead of the PC way of bury your head in the sand and pretend everything is normal while buying votes in successive elections. Waiting for things to become so terrible that the only solution is debt or new taxes.

They have been spending beyond their means for years and only now are they coming to terms with what they have created.

The PCs ####ing the dog isn't in dispute. But just focusing on who screwed up in the past doesn't help us solve the issues of the present and future. Just cutting spending will not work without deep, painful cuts (healthcare, infrastructure and education would all have to be cut) in a province growing immensly. A balance of cuts and new revenues is what needs to be done, but if a PST or income tax increases are non starters, than fixing the issues will not happen

[yads]

Originally Posted by Senator Clay Davis

Well yeah, thats the Wildrose way. Cut, cut cut and then we'll be able to afford everything. If only it were that easy, but unlike a business or a person, a government doesn't work like that in any way. But apparently just cutting will fix the issues in this province (like somehow the issue isn't over reliance on resource revenue, its excessive spending.) Spending cuts will not achieve anything close to balancing a budget, unless they are extremely deep cuts that result in drastic decreases in service offerings, which most people will be opposed to. People want it every single way possible rather than the realistic way.

Go back and read my post again and stop twisting my words into a straw man. What I said was that I support doing all 3 things: cutting spending, raising taxes, and taking on debt. What I don't support is raising taxes and taking on debt without first doing our best to reduce spending.

[crazy_eoj]

Originally Posted by Senator Clay Davis

The PCs ####ing the dog isn't in dispute. But just focusing on who screwed up in the past doesn't help us solve the issues of the present and future. Just cutting spending will not work without deep, painful cuts (healthcare, infrastructure and education would all have to be cut) in a province growing immensly. A balance of cuts and new revenues is what needs to be done, but if a PST or income tax increases are non starters, than fixing the issues will not happen

Yes that's right, just because other places can achieve much better outcomes for less dollars it's clearly IMPOSSIBLE in Alberta. Even though we spend way more than anywhere else and examples of waste are rampant, the solution is to increase revenues to allow more spending! We should just tax everyone 100%!

Genius! How come nobody every thought of that one!?

[Senator Clay Davis]

Originally Posted by crazy_eoj

Yes that's right, just because other places can achieve much better outcomes for less dollars it's clearly IMPOSSIBLE in Alberta. Even though we spend way more than anywhere else and examples of waste are rampant, the solution is to increase revenues to allow more spending! We should just tax everyone 100%!

Genius! How come nobody every thought of that one!?

Well your homework for the weekend is to find $6 billion in cuts, efficiencies and savings. Without major service reductions. Best of luck to you, looking forward to seeing what you can do.

[Slava]

Originally Posted by yads

Go back and read my post again and stop twisting my words into a straw man. What I said was that I support doing all 3 things: cutting spending, raising taxes, and taking on debt. What I don't support is raising taxes and taking on debt without first doing our best to reduce spending.

I actually don't disagree with you at all. The only thing I don't know how to figure out is when we've cut enough though. I'm sure that there is fat to be trimmed for example, but does that equal the estimated $6B shortfall this year? I doubt it, but there are those (predominantly Wildrose supporters) who would have us believe that to be the case.

[cal_guy]

Originally Posted by yads

Go back and read my post again and stop twisting my words into a straw man. What I said was that I support doing all 3 things: cutting spending, raising taxes, and taking on debt. What I don't support is raising taxes and taking on debt without first doing our best to reduce spending.

What you said was that governments should follow the example of businesses and households and cut spending, increase taxes, and avoid borrowing during tough economic times. That what happened during the Great Depression and that also what's happening in the UK right now.

[Mean Mr. Mustard]

Originally Posted by yads

What I think those of us who are against raising taxes are proposing, is to first cut operational spending, then and only then should tax increases be looked at. We shouldn't be looking at a deficit and automatically assuming that revenue is the problem. When times are tough this should be the order of things:

1. cut expenses
2. raise revenues
3. raise debt

The order shouldn't be

1. raise debt
2. raise revenues
3. cut expenses

What expenses? Without cliche terms like trim the fat or streamline services - how do you effectively propose to cut expenses? Cancel capital projects - personally I would rather borrow money to do so when the interest rate for doing so is as low as it is. It would be stupid to put projects on the back burner until the interest rates and the cost of doing business went up.

I really think that there are inefficiencies in the government and that they should be dealt with, however when people start saying things like cut expenses without offering any concrete strategies alarm bells go off in my head because there aren't that many government agencies that are rolling in a large amount of cash from my experiences.

[Mean Mr. Mustard]

Originally Posted by OzSome

Please NO to Sales Tax in Alberta. The biggest thing to do for the Alberta Government is to have pay cut on those overpaid MLAs or whatever they call it. Also get rid of all the unnecessary expenses by government. I can hardly afford to buy some stuff right now with the money I make. I am sure I won't be the only one. So adding another 5% of the stuff you buy makes it harder to survive.

Yeah that will save literally thousands and thousands of dollars.

[GP_Matt]

Originally Posted by Mean Mr. Mustard

What expenses? Without cliche terms like trim the fat or streamline services - how do you effectively propose to cut expenses? Cancel capital projects - personally I would rather borrow money to do so when the interest rate for doing so is as low as it is. It would be stupid to put projects on the back burner until the interest rates and the cost of doing business went up.

I really think that there are inefficiencies in the government and that they should be dealt with, however when people start saying things like cut expenses without offering any concrete strategies alarm bells go off in my head because there aren't that many government agencies that are rolling in a large amount of cash from my experiences.

People can't offer examples because the government has a huge budget for things like infrastructure and yet no list of projects or system to determine which projects are needed. Anyone who has ever been involved in criticizing a government project has heard the rumours that criticism will cause the project to be delayed or cancelled. It is easy to say that you still want the South Calgary hospital or you still want the highway 63 expansion but there are thousands of other projects on the go and in the pipeline. In my area there are plans to twin the rest of highway 43 (started the other day), discussions of twinning highway 40 for 20 km or so. They are building new schools and a $600 million hospital. Projects like this are going on in every community and maybe some of them should be looked at. Unfortunately there is no way to look at what is on the go and what is coming up. They are just announced when it is convenient for the government.

The other major component of government spending is salaries, both the value of the salaries and the number of salaries on the books. I think that they need to do a better job negotiating with the different departments. So far they have taken a hard line against the doctors but in the past I don't recall them ever standing up to other groups and that has to start now.

I don't believe that the government can fix the problem with cuts alone but I really think that is where they should start. Instead, all the talk has been about taxes and debt. Even if they know that taxes will be needed and debt will be created they should still look at that last. How are they supposed to negotiate tough with a union when they just announced that they have found a way to raise all the money that they need to pay the unions what they want.

[Ironhorse]

Alberta budget in 2003: $20.8 billion with $21.9 billion in revenues
Alberta budget in 2012: $41.1 billion with $40.3 billion in revenues

Does anyone know where to get the spending break down for these numbers?

I have trouble believing that inflation and labour caused the budget to nearly double in 10 years. My salary certainly didn't, and neither did my capital budgets at work.