Paternity Leave Rant

[Zevo]

Two questions. Are there dogs in this village, because my village has dogs, and secondly, do I get a say in how you reprimand your kids?

If it's partly my responsibility, I damn well better get a say if I think you are doing a shiddy job.

[Sliver]

Originally Posted by V

I just can't get over the fact that you are so willing to blatantly discriminate in favour of those with children. I'm shocked that one of your non-child rearing employees hasn't contacted HR about you yet.

But a sick mother or spouse would be a good excuse. My policy is basically one of empathy and kindness. Parents of small children tend to need more leeway than others, but that doesn't mean I don't give any leeway to anybody else.

This thread is about parents with small kids (in my view). If it was about people looking after their spouse with cancer, my sentiments would be the same.

BTW, I wouldn't pat yourself on the back too hard for letting people miss time then make it up at a later date. To me that's the default position and anything less would mean you're a bad boss.

To go back to the example of the single lady that works for me, allowing her to make up work at a later date is not helpful to her. So I let her come in on Saturday to do the work she missed while coming in late during the week, then what? She has to pay for childcare for Saturday and miss out on spending time with her kid on the weekend and decompressing from a busy week, or running errands, or doing whatever else it is that she likes to do. I think my approach is more helpful and more sympathetic than yours.

[Sliver]

Originally Posted by Zevo

Two questions. Are there dogs in this village, because my village has dogs, and secondly, do I get a say in how you reprimand your kids?

If it's partly my responsibility, I damn well better get a say if I think you are doing a shiddy job.

Haha, why don't you come over and babysit for me tonight. I'll leave you completely in charge to reprimand them any way you see fit.

[Zevo]

Originally Posted by Sliver

Haha, why don't you come over and babysit for me tonight. I'll leave you completely in charge to reprimand them any way you see fit.

Nice, I'll bring my dog. He's a shepherd/rotty cross and is excellent at herding unruly children.

[V]

Originally Posted by fotze

I think Silver has his own business IIRC, so likely no HR department.

Well that does help explain a few things.

[V]

Originally Posted by Sliver

BTW, I wouldn't pat yourself on the back too hard for letting people miss time then make it up at a later date. To me that's the default position and anything less would mean you're a bad boss.

I think you misunderstand. I'm not bragging, only making the point that every staff member has a situation in their personal life that will impact their work life. And it isn't within my jurisdiction to determine which personal situation is 'noble' enough to require special treatment.

And while time flexibility should be most every manager's default position (if the business allows it, areas like call centres obviously do not) you have made it quite clear in this thread that it isn't your default position.

To go back to the example of the single lady that works for me, allowing her to make up work at a later date is not helpful to her. So I let her come in on Saturday to do the work she missed while coming in late during the week, then what? She has to pay for childcare for Saturday and miss out on spending time with her kid on the weekend and decompressing from a busy week, or running errands, or doing whatever else it is that she likes to do. I think my approach is more helpful and more sympathetic than yours.

You're right, your approach is more sympathetic to child rearers than my approach. I would never claim otherwise.

My approach, however, is more equitable to the workforce than yours, and my training and experience managing people has taught me that clear and equitable policies go a long ways towards building employee engagement. I can appreciate the fact that your experiences have taught you otherwise. But I know that your approach would be met with resistance in my office, and you would be getting phone calls from HR from time to time.

[Sliver]

Originally Posted by V

I think you misunderstand. I'm not bragging, only making the point that every staff member has a situation in their personal life that will impact their work life. And it isn't within my jurisdiction to determine which personal situation is 'noble' enough to require special treatment.

And while time flexibility should be most every manager's default position (if the business allows it, areas like call centres obviously do not) you have made it quite clear in this thread that it isn't your default position.

You're right, your approach is more sympathetic to child rearers than my approach. I would never claim otherwise.

My approach, however, is more equitable to the workforce than yours , and my training and experience managing people has taught me that clear and equitable policies go a long ways towards building employee engagement. I can appreciate the fact that your experiences have taught you otherwise. But I know that your approach would be met with resistance in my office, and you would be getting phone calls from HR from time to time.

This thread is about parents, which is why I was talking about being empathetic to coworkers who are parents, but you're not understanding me at all. I'm sympathetic to all employees. I feel a very strong sense of responsibility to them as without them my company would fall apart pretty quickly. I'm sympathetic to people raising children, but I offer the same sympathy to people going through grief, having marital issues, who are sick, who are caring for loved ones, who have people visiting from out of town, etc.

Just this week one of the girls' car broke down. I gave her the company truck until it was fixed (she's not a mother, just somebody who needed some help and I - as her employer - was able to offer it). So I guess in addition to being helpful to parents, I'm also helpful to people who have car trouble. People with car trouble need to borrow cars sometimes and people raising kids need a different kind of leeway. It's reasonable to help people in the way(s) they need help. Why would I want to hamper my own ability to help the people I work with by making blanket policies that would stand in the way of me helping them?

Rigid HR policies are necessary for larger organizations that are departmentalized so you don't get any large groups of people resenting whole departments for "having it easier." I own a factory with nine employees. It's not difficult to offer help to all of them with such a small staff.

You are right that my management style wouldn't work in a larger company, nor should it. But it works awesome for a small company. I'm proud that I offer many things that others in my industry don't offer their production staff such as medical and dental benefits, paid sick days, and an annual year-end bonus. I let them go early on Fridays (but pay them) before long weekends. Some of those things may seem like standard-type things to you guys, but they are rare in a factory such as the one I operate. They do help with morale and staff retention, but at the end of the day I think they cost me more than they make me and I'm perfectly okay with that.

[WhiteTiger]

Originally Posted by Sliver

To go back to the example of the single lady that works for me, allowing her to make up work at a later date is not helpful to her. So I let her come in on Saturday to do the work she missed while coming in late during the week, then what? She has to pay for childcare for Saturday and miss out on spending time with her kid on the weekend and decompressing from a busy week, or running errands, or doing whatever else it is that she likes to do. I think my approach is more helpful and more sympathetic than yours.

So, instead of having her make up the work, you just pay her for it out of the goodness of your heart, then? Can I work for you? I'd like a job where I don't work but get paid anyhow (and becoming a Senator is tedious...). I imagine that she very much likes working for you. Very few folks can find a job that will pay them for not working.

[Sliver]

Originally Posted by WhiteTiger

So, instead of having her make up the work, you just pay her for it out of the goodness of your heart, then? Can I work for you? I'd like a job where I don't work but get paid anyhow (and becoming a Senator is tedious...). I imagine that she very much likes working for you. Very few folks can find a job that will pay them for not working.

She's maybe 45 minutes late per week when you add up the 5-20 minutes through the week. She's not taking advantage of me; she's busting her ass everyday and doing her best to be on time. I suppose I could tell her being late for work is unacceptable, but she knows this already. She literally cannot be on time because of her childcare situation compounded by a long drive to work with unpredictable traffic.

So she gets 1.5 hours extra every two weeks. Big deal. You can imagine somebody new to Canada living on her own and working in a factory doesn't make a whole lot to begin with. Small kindnesses and a bit of help here and there can mean everything to somebody who doesn't have very much.

[ricosuave]

Originally Posted by Sliver

I guess less sleep, less money, less relaxation time, less freedom and flexibility to enjoy hobbies and friends, more demands on your time, frustrations (tantrums, feedings, potty training, etc.), more responsibility, more illness, diapers, laundry, more cleaning, baths, etc. not to mention the endurance just to keep that up year after year. Throw in any life curve ball such as the death of a loved one, car accident, etc. and it becomes even harder. Parenting is easy, is it? No, objectively it is not. I can't believe we are even having this conversation.

So what? You chose to have a kid, and in your case, multiple kids.

Am I really supposed to feel sorry about your sleep, money, relaxation, freedom, flexibility, responsibility, illness, endurance and cleaning? Really?

You sir, had better think again if you think that is my problem in any way, shape or form.

Entitlement, indeed.

[Sliver]

Originally Posted by ricosuave

So what? You chose to have a kid, and in your case, multiple kids.

Am I really supposed to feel sorry about your sleep, money, relaxation, freedom, flexibility, responsibility, illness, endurance and cleaning? Really?

You sir, had better think again if you think that is my problem in any way, shape or form.

Entitlement, indeed.

This post was in response to somebody saying having kids was easy. It's a list of the things about parenting that are difficult. Way to take it out of context and then spin it like I was looking for sympathy.

I hope you edit your post to reflect the correct context instead of trying to make me look bad.

[hmmhmmcamo]

Originally Posted by Sliver

Well every situation is different and I don't know your circumstances, but you are an anomaly among parents to think it is an easy job. It seems almost unbelievable. What's difficult about it? I guess less sleep, less money, less relaxation time, less freedom and flexibility to enjoy hobbies and friends, more demands on your time, frustrations (tantrums, feedings, potty training, etc.), more responsibility, more illness, diapers, laundry, more cleaning, baths, etc. not to mention the endurance just to keep that up year after year. Throw in any life curve ball such as the death of a loved one, car accident, etc. and it becomes even harder. Parenting is easy, is it? No, objectively it is not. I can't believe we are even having this conversation.

I don't really have anything to add, I just find it funny that Silver posts this sob story about the struggles and sacrifices of parenthood, and then proceeds to spend a bunch of time on the internet fighting the good fight.

[Red John]

Originally Posted by hmmhmmcamo

I don't really have anything to add, I just find it funny that Silver posts this sob story about the struggles and sacrifices of parenthood, and then proceeds to spend a bunch of time on the internet fighting the good fight.

Or hating on teachers and saying how easy a job it is, then being upset when the shoe's on the other foot.

[Mr.Coffee]

So for all the people saying "work is work, you had your kid you made your bed"- I don't necessarily disagree with you, but I do think there should be leniency.

Today's society is not the same as raising kids in the 60's / 70's / 80's and even 90's to a certain extent.

As we all know, and for an entire array of reasons, it appears the trend is moving towards 2 parents earning incomes to support and raise families. How many of you with that "work is work" lens and the- what appears to be- a somewhat lack of empathy for parents of young kids- raised your kids in previous generations when your spouse could stay home and deal with a lot of the "kid emergencies"???

Sliver brought up a good point but it never really seemed to be addressed (I don't think, but it's late and I should be in bed haha)... if both parents work and you NEED to go because of your kid, or if the bus is late or whatever, wtf are you supposed to do?

Softball and beers with the buddies and screwing around after work so you can live the freedom til 50 life or whatever you're doing, I don't judge you, I don't even really care, but you can't see the difference?

However, do agree that the presumption that people should cover you just because you have kids seems wrong too and definitely shows some entitlement.

Honestly, I think this whole thing just comes down to attitudes and respect.

[freedogger]

Having kids has made me a better employee for three simple reasons. Its the number of additional mouths I have to feed. At the end of the day, I have a stronger motivation to deliver more. Failure really isn't an option.

[Sliver]

Originally Posted by hmmhmmcamo

I don't really have anything to add, I just find it funny that Silver posts this sob story about the struggles and sacrifices of parenthood, and then proceeds to spend a bunch of time on the internet fighting the good fight.

Are you serious? First of all, I have said twice already that the real difficult time is 0-2.5 and my kids are twice that age. Having gone through babies and toddlers has given me some empathy and understanding that you guys are lacking. My kids aren't hard now and this isn't about me. This is about parents of small kids in general.

I just wonder what charmed lives you guys are leading or why posters that know of the difficulties I'm talking about are being so silent. One of my best friends right now is going through something brutal. His wife injured her arm severely and they have a nine month old baby. She can't lift the baby or use her arm at all without risking further and permanent damage. My friend has had to take a month off work to keep his house running and his baby cared for. Is this stuff not happening in your guys' world of the land of easy babies?

[Sliver]

Originally Posted by Red John

Or hating on teachers and saying how easy a job it is, then being upset when the shoe's on the other foot.

Hah. Hating on teachers? That's ridiculous, being a teacher would be awesome. It's the best career in the world.

[Rathji]

Originally Posted by freedogger

Having kids has made me a better employee for three simple reasons. Its the number of additional mouths I have to feed. At the end of the day, I have a stronger motivation to deliver more. Failure really isn't an option.

I agree with this.

When I was single, I would sometimes spend all night playing video games and 'call in sick' the next day and do it again. Pretty much annually, I was being disciplined for violating the number of allowed absences in a year.

Now, I have 3 kids and still take time off to deal with them being sick or appointments, but I never approach the level of absenteeism that I did when I was single.

[Rathji]

Originally Posted by Sliver

I just wonder what charmed lives you guys are leading or why posters that know of the difficulties I'm talking about are being so silent. One of my best friends right now is going through something brutal. His wife injured her arm severely and they have a nine month old baby. She can't lift the baby or use her arm at all without risking further and permanent damage. My friend has had to take a month off work to keep his house running and his baby cared for. Is this stuff not happening in your guys' world of the land of easy babies?

I have 3 kids under 5, and have recently added 2 kids in their teen years (long story), both of which have some pretty severe behavioral/emotional issues. I spend pretty much every evening either dealing with homework, appointments, etc or dealing with the household chaos that results from my wife spending all day doing the same thing. School recently finished for the older ones, so we have a bit of a break on that front for now.

I know how hard it is, but I don't expect my boss/company to give me any more leniency than is given to anyone else. If I take time off, it comes from my vacation time, or is made up as flex time. Of course, I also have a job where if something happens, I can walk across the hall and tell my boss I need to leave in 5 mins for (an hour/day/week) and 99% of the time he would say no problem.

If I didn't have that job, or the flexibility it provides, I might be one of the people that the OP is complaining about, but I made the choice to stay where I was for that flexibility, because it is important to me to have it right now. With that benefit, I am not earning as much money as I would in pretty much every other company in the city, so it isn't free.

[Sliver]

Sounds like your boss is giving you plenty of leniency, Rathji, which is great. It's how it should be. There are lots of jobs where flex time doesn't even exist and where leaving for a week with five minutes of notice would have repercussions.